advanced training and coms use

[Bob D.]

Eh up everyone - this's my first post, so hello and I'll start by saying that there's a lot of informative and interesting posts on RTTL.

Let me get straight to the point. I've been reading a copy of Advanced Rider Training by Stephen Tucker and David Rainford. It covers various issues, but one thing I noticed was the emphasis and focus on wireless/bluetooth etc. communication between trainer and trainee.

My questions are pretty simple - is this standard practice for advanced training? Would those in the know say that the majority of advanced trainers use coms? Or is it 50/50, or just a minority? I appreciate this is almost impossible to answer with any degree of certainty at the national level, and perhaps even the local group level - but if any long-serving trainers can give any info or insight here I'd be very grateful. One more question - how do those who've trained - and train - using coms find they work? Do they make it easier, more difficult? Etc. If anyone has any objections to using them, I'd be interested in reading about those too.

For those who use coms, and have two-way contact between trainer / trainee, is commentary riding ever used? I'm talking about a purely civilian context here.

One last thing - is there an equivalent to Roadcraft for trainers, that gives advice and guidance on how to train associates for advanced riding? Is there a "go-to" publication of any kind?

Thanks in advance everyone.

[weeksy]

Welcome in. As you may have gathered, I cant answer much. But welcome in.

[Bob D.]

cheers!

much obliged

[slowsider]

Are you delivering training, or planning to?

[Count Steer]

Have had comms on 3 advanced training sessions (2 different people, one of them is The Spin Doctor, the other was an ex-police trainer with Rapid Training). It's some time ago and I think comms were only 1-way.
The Rapid chap did a demo of riding commentary à la police but obvs the trainee couldn't.

Spin and Horse will know much more about training comms.

[Bob D.]

Are you delivering training, or planning to?

Good question. Short answer - no. However, I do have mates who're observers and I talk to them about their roles and how they go about it. I don't know any that use coms, so was surprised when I read Advanced Rider Training that there was so much emphasis on their use.

You may well wonder why I was reading that book without being an observer or training as one. This is because the past few weeks I've not been able to ride much with the weather being so sh*t (scarcely a fully dry day for best part of three weeks now, one way or another - if I go out in that, I tend to spend more time cleaning the bike than I did riding the bleddy thing lol). So, sometimes the next best thing to actually riding is to read about it. I've read a shed load of autobiogs of motogp and TT riders, etc. This time I thought I'd read the most recent Roadcraft and any other books I came across that were directly or even vaguely associated with it. Advanced Rider Training was one of several I bought.

[Bob D.]

Have had comms on 3 advanced training sessions (2 different people, one of them is The Spin Doctor, the other was an ex-police trainer with Rapid Training). It's some time ago and I think comms were only 1-way.
The Rapid chap did a demo of riding commentary à la police but obvs the trainee couldn't.

Spin and Horse will know much more about training comms.

thanks for that

[slowsider]

Are you delivering training, or planning to?

Good question. Short answer - no. However, I do have mates who're observers and I talk to them about their roles and how they go about it. I don't know any that use coms, so was surprised when I read Advanced Rider Training that there was so much emphasis on their use.

You may well wonder why I was reading that book without being an observer or training as one. This is because the past few weeks I've not been able to ride much with the weather being so sh*t (scarcely a fully dry day for best part of three weeks now, one way or another - if I go out in that, I tend to spend more time cleaning the bike than I did riding the bleddy thing lol). So, sometimes the next best thing to actually riding is to read about it. I've read a shed load of autobiogs of motogp and TT riders, etc. This time I thought I'd read the most recent Roadcraft and any other books I came across that were directly or even vaguely associated with it. Advanced Rider Training was one of several I bought.

I've used comms for giving directions, but I stop to explain anything more complex; same in the car - if you are doing any more than confirming what you've already explained then you risk distracting the student. Imho.

[Horse]

20211206_174409.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 592 times

I bought a copy of that a year ago, passed it on to Spin.

http://revtothelimit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1367

However, for instructor and manuals, etc, as always, the question isn't 'what should I do?' but 'what do you want to be able to do?'

But, here's a couple of good ones:

The Driving Instructors Handbook. Been continously in print since the 1980s.

Coaching for Performance, by [the late] Sir John Whitmore

And the same 'what?' challenge applies to your own development. I'd recommend doing more than just the infinite polishing, down the rabbit hole, ever 'higher' Roadcraft training. Look at stuff like Hopp skills and i2i Academy.

Comms. I used PMR radios, me transmitting, trainees listening Bluetooth hadn't made it to B2B intercoms then.

Invaluable for on-road, but I didn't use it for off-road.

But ... they're not mobile phones, you can't ask a trainee to think about improvements you suggest while they're trying to concentrate on the road ahead.

Directions, yes (see DIH book for more. Well, my copy does)
Short, targeted, instructions, yes - but consider that your trainee needs to listen, think, react, so timing (and space) is important.

So, what's your plan?

Edit. Just seen your answer.

Note: observing is not (always / sometimes / ever) instructing.

[Cousin Jack]

Like the Count, I have had 'Advanced' Training from 2 different people, one of them Spin, albeit some years ago. IIRC one didn't use comms, the other did but they were flakey on the day and were a distraction rather than an aid.

If I were signing up tomorrow I would much prefer a clear explanation of what/where/why in advance, and then a debrief about how badly I had screwed up afterwards. I really don't want a little voice nagging in my ear.

[Bob D.]

I've used comms for giving directions, but I stop to explain anything more complex; same in the car - if you are doing any more than confirming what you've already explained then you risk distracting the student. Imho.

if i've understood it correctly, the tucker and rainford book mainly advocates using coms as means of giving directions (rather than e.g. advising and guiding on positioning, etc.).

[wheelnut]

If you use them, then use them sparingly. I never gave instruction over the radio. Like CJ says, having a voice nagging in your ear will quickly lead to mental overload and a poor ride.

Tell the person how and why you will use the radio during the brief. During the brief, rightly or wrongly, I told them the only instruction I would give over the radio would be if I saw them teeing up for an OT I didn’t want them to take. In that event I would say a single word and it would be ‘wait’.

Otherwise, I just used them for the odd direction and a bit of positive reinforcement/observation links when their workload was low.

[Bigyin]

As i train at the basic level i NEED comms with the pupil for their safety and to provide immediate instructions on what they are/should be doing but like Horse i use PMR 1 way radios. I keep it as simple as possible and anything that needs more than a quick correction or acknowledging nod from a pupil then i pull them over a have a chat to make sure they understand fully what they need to change/apply.

As Horse said observers dont "instruct" but provide feedback on what they see so shouldnt really need comms apart from providing direction.

[Trinity765]

Hi and welcome Bob.

The IAM do not use coms. They expect you to use your mirrors to watch for the observer's indicators. I thought I'd struggle with that but I soon got used to it and it improved my rear obs. 'See a junction sign - mirror check' is not a bad habit.

I've heard that ROSPA use coms and you may have to do a running commentary of your ride, but I've not ridden with them so don't know if that is true. I have found that doing a running commentary very helpful though and do it occasionally out of choice.

Independents do what they want and in my experience, most use coms. If it's with a riding school they usually have one way coms and if you have your own bluetooth set, they may use that.

Have fun whatever you're planning to do

[Horse]

welcome Bob.

Ooh! Forgot that bit! Hello!

The IAM do not use coms.

Thames Valley used to. Don't know about 'now'.

They expect you to use your mirrors to watch for the observer's indicators.

As I described earlier, using the radios to give any sort of guidance (whether literally directions or particular instruction), timing is critical. You need to work to the trainee's timescale on looking and reacting, not your own.

Also, as Slowy mentioned, planned or ad hoc stops for discussion are important. They typically require 'non junction' locations.

[iansoady]

When I did my IAM test way back in the 1990s, changes of direction were notified by the indicators on the following cop's bike. If nothing else, it made me keep an eye on the mirror. Fast forward 15 years or so and an assessment I did with Spin used radio. That was much better (although I could have ignored the mirrors!)

[Trinity765]

welcome Bob.

Ooh! Forgot that bit! Hello!

The IAM do not use coms.

Thames Valley used to. Don't know about 'now'.

They expect you to use your mirrors to watch for the observer's indicators.

As I described earlier, using the radios to give any sort of guidance (whether literally directions or particular instruction), timing is critical. You need to work to the trainee's timescale on looking and reacting, not your own.

Also, as Slowy mentioned, planned or ad hoc stops for discussion are important. They typically require 'non junction' locations.

I guess it pretty much depends on the region/association.

I've never trained anyone and I don't like coms. I used to go out with a guy on a Sunday mornings and we used coms. I don't know about anyone else but it can take me 10 minutes to get into a ride and as soon as we hit a national speed limit road he'd ask me a question - "How's your Mum? How's work?". My reply was usually " can you give me 10 minutes please".

[Horse]

... as soon as we hit a national speed limit road he'd ask me a question - "How's your Mum? How's work?". My reply was usually " can you give me 10 minutes please".

Eek! No.

they're not mobile phones

[Beancounter]

I've heard that ROSPA use coms and you may have to do a running commentary of your ride, but I've not ridden with them so don't know if that is true. I have found that doing a running commentary very helpful though and do it occasionally out of choice.

With regards to RoSPA, I think it's down to preference of the observer. My observer doesn't use them, preferring the same approach that you've described (leading from behind).

[slowsider]

I used to go out with a guy on a Sunday mornings and we used coms. I don't know about anyone else but it can take me 10 minutes to get into a ride and as soon as we hit a national speed limit road he'd ask me a question - "How's your Mum? How's work?". My reply was usually " can you give me 10 minutes please".

Jeez. One of the best parts of biking is avoiding small talk. The only reason I'd even consider pillion intercom is to avoid bruised kidneys