How bikes work

[Cousin Jack]

What I’ve always found odd is these days is instructors are obsessed with counter steering so much so it’s like you can’t learn without knowing about it.Yes we all do it as physics dictates it’s needed but I’d never heard it mentioned until some time in the early 2000’s, by then I’d been riding nearly 25 years Road, off-road and track. I still never deliberately do it turning into corners but I do use it to sit the bike up on corner exit on track, not really a technique needed on the road though as you shouldn’t be on the gas that hard

Like you I learned to ride long before I ever heard of counter-steering, but I did have a few buttock-clenching moments that might have been avoided if I had known about it!

I do use it on the road, it is very useful on tight nadgery roads where you need to aggressively move from left to right (or vice versa) to set up for the next bend quickly. It is also a great help if you need a sudden lane change because some blind idiot is about to side swipe you. And of course the buttock-clenching bits when you arrive at a corner rather too fast, and you would rather not make a hole in the hedge.

[Horse]

Trolley castor wheel steering, did they say?

[Skub]

Countersteering is one of those things a lot of riders like myself had never heard of when starting bikes,but once made aware of what it is,you can't become unaware. I think this is good in some ways,as CJ mentioned it now can be deliberately used,rather than a subconscious thing. It's a tool.

I remember an interview with Eddie Lawson at the peak of his prowess and he said the one thing which frightened him was,he couldn't put his finger on exactly why he was faster than the rest. His pondering took him to the conclusion,he could wake up one day and not be as fast,then he wouldn't know how to fix it.

[Skub]

Trolley castor wheel steering, did they say?

The front on that Niken has definitely tucked.

[MingtheMerciless]

Next someone will be saying the throttle works both ways or some other hearsay .

[Horse]

Eddie Lawson at the peak of his prowess ... His pondering took him to the conclusion,he could wake up one day and not be as fast,then he wouldn't know how to fix it.

It can happen.

I had a guy book a session. One day, he just couldn't get around corners. The guy had been riding longer than I had.

We went right back to basics, then gradually rebuilt the skills. One key part, when we got on-road, approaching every corner, was for him to consciously check for tension, then mentally prepare to self-talk the actions needed to get around the corner.

But to be able to do that, you need to understand those elements.

And, as much as some people hate him for it, that's where Keith Code excels. [Although with 'Soft Science' he took it to a ridiculous extent ]

[wheelnut]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

It works to an extent when stationary, it’s what I use to dictate which way the bike will go for a foot down. Handy when you can’t touch the floor.

[wheelnut]

Then how do unicycles steer?
Or bikes wheelieing for that matter?

A unicycle isn’t a bicycle.

[The Spin Doctor]

two wheeled vehicles steer like a car until a certain speed is reached then it goes the opposite way. prodrive did some work to show this years ago.

i

Not according to the experts above

There's actually a very good - and highly mathematical - explanation of the cross over from direct to counter-steering in John Robinson's chassis design book.

[The Spin Doctor]

Keith Code invented counter steering,don't you lot know nuttin'?

No, HE invented 'positive steering'... then tried to sell it to the DVSA as unique.

[Horse]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

It works to an extent when stationary, it’s what I use to dictate which way the bike will go for a foot down. Handy when you can’t touch the floor.

Yorick is going to try it and get it onto YouTube!

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Most of our enduro rides are below that, and the bars steer the bike where I want it to go.

Get one of your trailie bikes, ride slowly to a halt - keeping your feet up. Just as you're stopping, press forward on on one bar, the bike will tip that way. [Put your foot down ]

Next, ride in a circle, first gear clutch fully engage. Nudge the 'inside' bar. Does it turn tighter? What speed does it work down to?

[The Spin Doctor]

I knew it was too long since we had a counter-steering thread.

FWIW, the first description of counter-steering was by one of the Wright Brothers (can't remember which) in about 1905... he wrote a paper for an American engineering journal talking about a method for steering single track (bi)cycles...

[Horse]

Wilbur

"I have asked dozens of bicycle riders how they turn to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. They almost invariably said that to turn to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made a turn to the left. But on further questioning them, some would agree that they first turned the handlebar a little to the right, and then as the machine inclined to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made the circle, inclining inward."

[Dodgy69]

I.ll admit, I have tried on occasion to purposefully push on bars to initiate lean and found it a bit weird and gave it up on the next corner. Best let the bike sort itself out. Works for me .

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

two wheeled vehicles steer like a car until a certain speed is reached then it goes the opposite way. prodrive did some work to show this years ago.

i

Not according to the experts above

There's actually a very good - and highly mathematical - explanation of the cross over from direct to counter-steering in John Robinson's chassis design book.

I've got that book, even more alarming I know where the book is, point me at the chapter and I'll scan it for you if you want.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The thing which suprises me in all these threads is that there's no datalogging available. There are always youtube videos of people with ever more bizarre contraptions which prove you must / must not be countersteering, but it's an absolute piece of piss to just record it directly.

I'd be very surprised if MotoGP at least don't have a log of steering angle vs. yaw rate vs. lean angle vs. a million other things all recorded 50 times a second. Electronics are so cheap these days that loads of people could be doing it. Obviously MotoGP teams aren't going to be divulging their data any time soon, but I'd have thought someone would have.

[The Spin Doctor]

The thing which suprises me in all these threads is that there's no datalogging available. There are always youtube videos of people with ever more bizarre contraptions which prove you must / must not be countersteering, but it's an absolute piece of piss to just record it directly.

I'd be very surprised if MotoGP at least don't have a log of steering angle vs. yaw rate vs. lean angle vs. a million other things all recorded 50 times a second. Electronics are so cheap these days that loads of people could be doing it. Obviously MotoGP teams aren't going to be divulging their data any time soon, but I'd have thought someone would have.

I believe it's been done at the undergraduate project level on quite a number of occasions.

On a more practical level, counter-steering is so well-proven scientifically that it's simply taken for granted by chassis designers, to the point where it doesn't appear to need 'proving' yet again. It's the end uses who have so much trouble with it.

[The Spin Doctor]

I've got that book, even more alarming I know where the book is, point me at the chapter and I'll scan it for you if you want.

Very decent of you!

I know where my copy is too

I don't have a scanner but if anyone wants to see the equations, I'm sure they'll take you up on the offer

[Mr. Dazzle]

I believe it's been done at the undergraduate project level on quite a number of occasions.

On a more practical level, counter-steering is so well-proven scientifically that it's simply taken for granted by chassis designers, to the point where it doesn't appear to need 'proving' yet again. It's the end uses who have so much trouble with it.

Sure - but "they" will have reems and reems of data showing all the various control inputs and a tonne of other metrics on the bike, it's standard practice on race vehicles. I've seen and used that data loads of times on cars, but not on bikes. I was more thinking it'd be a few minutes work for someone to just pull a bit out and show it.

[The Spin Doctor]

Sure - but "they" will have reems and reems of data showing all the various control inputs and a tonne of other metrics on the bike, it's standard practice on race vehicles. I've seen and used that data loads of times on cars, but not on bikes. I was more thinking it'd be a few minutes work for someone to just pull a bit out and show it.

I'm positive they have got masses of data that could demonstrate counter-steering - my guess is that they simply don't see the need to. A bit like asking a NASA engineer to prove that gravity works.