How bikes work

[Couchy]

What I’ve always found odd is these days is instructors are obsessed with counter steering so much so it’s like you can’t learn without knowing about it.Yes we all do it as physics dictates it’s needed but I’d never heard it mentioned until some time in the early 2000’s, by then I’d been riding nearly 25 years Road, off-road and track. I still never deliberately do it turning into corners but I do use it to sit the bike up on corner exit on track, not really a technique needed on the road though as you shouldn’t be on the gas that hard

Your timescale is good for this.

Historically, almost all rider training in the UK has been based on police techniques and ex-police riders had the influence, whether L or advanced.

The old format police manual (superseded in 1996) didn't mention it at all. DSA as was didn't agree with it even being mentioned.

All that had to change in 2010 when the Mod 1 test, with the 'swerve' exercise, was introduced.

From my perspective, I want people to:
- be aware of it (many were not when I was more active in training up, to 2008). Many of those were car drivers, for them it was totally counter intuitive.
- know a simple method: press left, go left; press harder steer quicker; press more lean more; release the pressure when you have enough lean.
- be consistent. For those non-intuitive riders, if they're not then they won't use it when they need to (swerving, changing line in a bend, etc.).

FWIW the UK's omission of steering is unusual. At an event I attended there were demos by French, Dutch, US and German (or Austrian) instructors of their own steering training. That was in 1995.

Re MTB. We had a back to biking trainee, years ago, who came back after specifically to tell us how it had improved his cycling. IIRC he did some sort of downhill racing.

So I wasn't imagining not hearing about it and no I know the reasons

My point being though it's quite possible to ride a bike fairly well having never heard of the technique, tbh I never had any instruction but still managed to get on a race podium and gain a national licence. Some instructors seem to think it's the holy grail of motorbike riding and you can't possibly ride one without it, I'm not referring to any of the instructors here and we've had this discussion before that a lot in your profession do put folk off with their attitude and techniques for instructing and looking at your post above the timescales fits well with my view (rightly or wrongly) of how instructors work. I guess it's also the view of a lot of folk my age who heard or experienced the earlier way of instructing which is why we shy away now.

[weeksy]

Re MTB. We had a back to biking trainee, years ago, who came back after specifically to tell us how it had improved his cycling. IIRC he did some sort of downhill racing.

That surprises me because the weighting of the rider and bike are VERY different in terms of motorbikes and MTB.... it's more MX riding than road riding.

[Count Steer]

I didn't find out about it until 2003 ( to Survival Skills) and, tbh, it was a bit of a game changer. I was amazed at how by being v positive with the 'push' I could get a lump like the 1150 GS to drop into a corner or change direction. I tried it on my MTB and the speed of direction change was just
I must have been doing it ever since I got my first pushbike but knowing/understanding actually made a big difference.

[Horse]

It varied between police schools. IIRC Thames Valley were very proactive on newer content. Others not so. I talked with a couple of instructors from one police school (1995) and asked whether they taught it? "If someone's having trouble getting around corners, we might mention it after 3 or 4 days."

Another police instructor who published a couple of books noted that if you needed to countersteer then you had probably done something wrong beforehand. He was a contributor to 'new' Roadcraft.


But perhaps the best comment was in the DSA post-test DVD. Running wide in a corner? Solution: go slower next time.

[Horse]

Re MTB. We had a back to biking trainee, years ago, who came back after specifically to tell us how it had improved his cycling. IIRC he did some sort of downhill racing.

That surprises me because the weighting of the rider and bike are VERY different in terms of motorbikes and MTB.... it's more MX riding than road riding.

I don't know specifically what events, only that he said it helped.

[Dodgy69]

Just thinking out loud here, but I've never needed to deliberately think about CS. Maybe avoiding road debri at slowish speeds may be of use, not sure tbh.

My slight concern is when riding faster and you deliberately and forcefully CS, could you be upsetting the natural turn of the bike. ?? Most rider's I imagine, just chuck/lean it in and move body position as one smooth controlled lean, rather than forcing physics and maybe not working as one, just food for thought.

[Count Steer]

Just thinking out loud here, but I've never needed to deliberately think about CS. Maybe avoiding road debri at slowish speeds may be of use, not sure tbh.

My slight concern is when riding faster and you deliberately and forcefully CS, could you be upsetting the natural turn of the bike. ?? Most rider's I imagine, just chuck/lean it in and move body position as one smooth controlled lean, rather than forcing physics and maybe not working as one, just food for thought.

No real force involved and you are, basically, working with the steering geometry and its pretty natural if you want to lean your body to the left to gently push the right hand.

[dern]

I must have been doing it ever since I got my first pushbike but knowing/understanding actually made a big difference.

Same here, knowing about it and how to exploit it changed my riding completely. Had so much more control and my avoidance ability improved hugely. I'm sure some people are at that level instinctively but I wasn't.

[Yorick]

What I’ve always found odd is these days is instructors are obsessed with counter steering so much so it’s like you can’t learn without knowing about it.Yes we all do it as physics dictates it’s needed but I’d never heard it mentioned until some time in the early 2000’s, by then I’d been riding nearly 25 years Road, off-road and track. I still never deliberately do it turning into corners but I do use it to sit the bike up on corner exit on track, not really a technique needed on the road though as you shouldn’t be on the gas that hard

Ditto. We raced for years without it

[Yorick]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Most of our enduro rides are below that, and the bars steer the bike where I want it to go.

[Count Steer]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

[Mr. Dazzle]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

What about backwards?

I saw the 2 year old baby D doing it on her little balance bike (push bike without pedals) at not much more than walking pace. For some reason best known to herself she used to like riding with just the heels of her hands resting on the bars and her fingers in fists, but she could still balance and steer just fine.

[Yorick]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

When I turn the bars left, the bike goes left.

[Count Steer]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

What about backwards?

I saw the 2 year old baby D doing it on her little balance bike (push bike without pedals) at not much more than walking pace. For some reason best known to herself she used to like riding with just the heels of her hands resting on the bars and her fingers in fists, but she could still balance and steer just fine.

I tried riding a pushbike backwards once.

It didn't end well.

[Count Steer]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

When I turn the bars left, the bike goes left.

When you turn the bars left, the bike leans right. Just get your pushbike out and try it.

Straight line, push the right hand bar....take some Elastoplast.

[Horse]

What speed does it start working? I'd guess about 20 mph.

Most of our enduro rides are below that, and the bars steer the bike where I want it to go.

Get one of your trailie bikes, ride slowly to a halt - keeping your feet up. Just as you're stopping, press forward on on one bar, the bike will tip that way. [Put your foot down ]

Next, ride in a circle, first gear clutch fully engage. Nudge the 'inside' bar. Does it turn tighter? What speed does it work down to?

[Yorick]

Ooh, from about 0.1mph. (It works on a bicycle as long as it's moving forwards).

When I turn the bars left, the bike goes left.

When you turn the bars left, the bike leans right. Just get your pushbike out and try it.

Straight line, push the right hand bar....take some Elastoplast.

The bicycle went where I pointed it. Did a slalom on the drive.

[Dodgy69]

Maybe it's about combating centrifugal force's or summot.

[porter_jamie]

two wheeled vehicles steer like a car until a certain speed is reached then it goes the opposite way. prodrive did some work to show this years ago.

it might be possible to ride a bike not understanding what 'countersteering' is, but it is completely impossible to ride a bike without doing it. Literally, as the video above proves. you might not think you are doing it, but you are.

[Yorick]

two wheeled vehicles steer like a car until a certain speed is reached then it goes the opposite way. prodrive did some work to show this years ago.

i

Not according to the experts above