*** SOBS *** Why I recommend yellow lights!

[Horse]

Any number of people struggle to negotiate a curve in the road without investigating the scenery.

Although it's a very common type of bike crash, for most riders it doesn't happen often.

Unfortunately, even with a low 'getting it wrong' % rate, you'll typically encounter hundreds of corners during each ride.

Whereas overtaking is also high up the stats, but most rides won't include hundreds of overtakes.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Exposure x consequences?

Not arguing, just adding context.

And, yes, consequences of each ...

[Horse]

This was a national speed limit road and seconds before this scenario, I was exceeding it.

It's possible that when he first saw you he assessed that you were far enough away to emerge, and you covered some of the ground more quickly than he expected. It's also possible that he didn't see you, or didn't look, or didn't care.

Experienced drivers look where they expect traffic
to be and may only look for 0.4 second.

[Count Steer]

Tbh to compare motorbikes and MTB is complete madness, certainly in terms of what I ride.

No, perhaps I wasn't clear.

It's the principle that improvements- whether knowledge and understanding, or skills, don't just happen.

The type of vehicle is irrelevant. It could be any other activity, such as golf or swimming.

But why do improvements need to happen? Why can't you just get from A to B ? Why is there this thing where you and spin think people must improve? Must be seen more? Must be, whatever.

If I'm riding a bike down a canal path I don't need to improve, it's just riding a bike down a canal path.

Same as walking the dog, there doesn't have to be an improvement does there?

What about driving to Tesco, why do I need to get better at it?

I take training at MTB because I race, I want to go faster to improve as a racer and improve my position in the standings, if I were just cycling for a pint of milk I'd have no desire or requirement to get better.

Riding a bike is just a vehicle, that's it, like a van, car, or double decker bus, there's not always a need to get better at it

Skills improvement isn't mandatory.

Depends whether you think staying alive or not injuring others is a skill that can be improved in the first place.

Improvement isn't mandatory, as you say, like being able to ride faster isn't but they're all 'skills'. Maybe the old 'Roll call for the fallen' would have been shorter if both skill sets had equal emphasis. Getting from A to B as routine, or getting from B to C faster than before - and managing the risks, or driving to Tesco without endangering others - just as much skills as wheelies. Some people put more effort and thought into their choices than others. Personal choice innit?

Edit: And the aim is not to have to think about it ie move from conscious competence to unconscious competence.

[Trinity765]

This was a national speed limit road and seconds before this scenario, I was exceeding it.

It's possible that when he first saw you he assessed that you were far enough away to emerge, and you covered some of the ground more quickly than he expected. It's also possible that he didn't see you, or didn't look, or didn't care.

Did you move laterally ? Cue Horse and z-line.

When I realised the scenario, I had quarter of a mile to slow down and I did. What surprised me was the amount of time that the driver had to look and yet still didn't know I was there. I didn't move laterally. My point is, on that day, in those conditions, in that jacket - I didn't stand out.

Another concern with that jacket is that that kind of reflective clothing is currently mainly used by cyclists and although my road position would typically be near the centre of the road/white line rather than the curb, I may be mistaken for a cyclist and be approaching much faster than expected. Maybe that's what happened.

Great at night though - I've had two reports of bikers being flashed by oncoming cars wearing full reflective gear and I bought it for my commute which can start and end in the dark during the winter........and then I bought a car

[weeksy]

No, perhaps I wasn't clear.

It's the principle that improvements- whether knowledge and understanding, or skills, don't just happen.

The type of vehicle is irrelevant. It could be any other activity, such as golf or swimming.

But why do improvements need to happen? Why can't you just get from A to B ? Why is there this thing where you and spin think people must improve? Must be seen more? Must be, whatever.

If I'm riding a bike down a canal path I don't need to improve, it's just riding a bike down a canal path.

Same as walking the dog, there doesn't have to be an improvement does there?

What about driving to Tesco, why do I need to get better at it?

I take training at MTB because I race, I want to go faster to improve as a racer and improve my position in the standings, if I were just cycling for a pint of milk I'd have no desire or requirement to get better.

Riding a bike is just a vehicle, that's it, like a van, car, or double decker bus, there's not always a need to get better at it

Skills improvement isn't mandatory.

Depends whether you think staying alive or not injuring others is a skill that can be improved in the first place.

Improvement isn't mandatory, as you say, like being able to ride faster isn't but they're all 'skills'. Maybe the old 'Roll call for the fallen' would have been shorter if both skill sets had equal emphasis. Getting from A to B as routine, or getting from B to C faster than before - and managing the risks, or driving to Tesco without endangering others - just as much skills as wheelies. Some people put more effort and thought into their choices than others. Personal choice innit?

Edit: And the aim is not to have to think about it ie move from conscious competence to unconscious competence.

Of course it's personal choice, that's my whole point. It gets thrown about that if you don't do xyz then you're unsafe, a danger, incorrect, however you term it. But yes, it's 100% personal choice and preference

[Horse]

It's the principle that improvements- whether knowledge and understanding, or skills, don't just happen.

But why do improvements need to happen?

I take training at MTB because I race, I want to go faster to improve as a racer and improve my position in the standings

Skills improvement isn't mandatory.

Indeed, it isn't (apart from when DVSA are involved). It's each individual's choice of where they want to get to (apart from test level). However, no-one starts off knowing, and able to do, everything well.

Also, some people don't know what they don't know. You included dog walking. Next few times you're out and about, have a look at how many people have their dogs walking 'loose lead' alongside and how many are letting the dog drag them along.

It's similar with riding, many riders could easily make small changes which could make their riding easier and more enjoyable. But, sometimes, there's an attitude of "I've passed my test, what more is there to know?".

Why is there this thing where you and spin think people must improve? Must be seen more? Must be, whatever.

Back OT. The point of SOBS is to gather and present facts.

It's undeniable that many riders get taken out by drivers turning in or out in front of them. Those riders have a choice as to whether they decide to reduce the likelihood of it happening and improve their chances if it does. Historically it's been viewed as:
1. The driver didn't look properly
2. Improving the conspicuity of the bike and rider is the cure

Despite daytime headlights, increased wearing of hi-viz, those crashes still happen, the stats have hardly changed.

The research, science, facts, are there to provide riders with choices, opportunity, to do things that might help - requiring the attitude that they can make a difference.

As I put earlier:
It's the principle that improvements- whether knowledge and understanding, or skills, don't just happen.

Most people will only know what they're taught, whether formal training, or informal from friends, books, YouTube, etc.

Some of both types is wrong - content like SOBS presents facts.


PS Driving toTesco:

www.newburytoday.co.uk/news/amp/woman-d ... h-9178611/

A WOMAN has died after a multi-vehicle accident in a Tesco store car park.

Thames Valley Police is now appealing for witnesses following the collision in Hungerford in which a white Skoda Yeti collided with four other vehicles before ploughing into the store front in Everland Road.

[weeksy]

However, no-one starts off knowing, and able to do, everything well.

Very few of us are starting off, particularly on this forum. We've been riding for 10,20, 30 and more years. We're still here, so we can't all be complete disasters.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't unusual so once again, i'll move on from the conversation as you're just not getting it.

[Horse]

We're still here, so we can't all be complete disasters.

Don't think anyone has said that.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't unusual so once again, i'll move on from the conversation as you're just not getting it.

Fair enough, I think you've missed mine too

[slowsider]

However, no-one starts off knowing, and able to do, everything well.

Very few of us are starting off, particularly on this forum. We've been riding for 10,20, 30 and more years. We're still here, so we can't all be complete disasters.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't unusual so once again, i'll move on from the conversation as you're just not getting it.

We're not though, are we. Can you not think of former forum members who are no longer with us?

[weeksy]

However, no-one starts off knowing, and able to do, everything well.

Very few of us are starting off, particularly on this forum. We've been riding for 10,20, 30 and more years. We're still here, so we can't all be complete disasters.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't unusual so once again, i'll move on from the conversation as you're just not getting it.

We're not though, are we. Can you not think of former forum members who are no longer with us?

It's not something i want to get into too deeply as one of them was a good friend. However, we as a forum/forums have lost very few people to road accidents and a lot more due to randomness and just well, getting sick and dying. I'd expect in that sense we've done much better than most places like this.

But does that mean that 'improving' would have stopped them who have died, who's to say... it's an impossible connundrum.

I'm guessing i simply see motorcycling as a day to day activity compared to some and not something i need to strive to improve upon....

[Wossname]

If your son /daughter/signif other was starting out on their bikey journey, at what point would you tell them that they can stop learning now? Curious... And you must have ridden with, or watched, others and thought "if you keep riding like that, you're going to come unstuck".

[weeksy]

If your son /daughter/signif other was starting out on their bikey journey, at what point would you tell them that they can stop learning now? Curious... And you must have ridden with, or watched, others and thought "if you keep riding like that, you're going to come unstuck".

I'm assuming that's for me. We all learn at times of course, but do we learn or need to learn more than just the usual riding ? Using that logic we should all be taking advanced lessons in driving too ? Really ? All of us ? Sure there's some who can't even drive badly on the roads... but on the whole, people get from A>B each day, day in day out.

Why is a motorbike different ?

I've ridden with many from here who were insanely fast.... If that's what you mean.... but as for them being poor riders, no, not really. All the guys i've ridden with got to their destinations and back home with a minimum of fuss.

I'm not sure they'd say the same about me though

[Horse]

If your son /daughter/signif other was starting out on their bikey journey, at what point would you tell them that they can stop learning now? Curious... And you must have ridden with, or watched, others and thought "if you keep riding like that, you're going to come unstuck".

but do we learn or need to learn more than just the usual riding ? Using that logic we should all be taking advanced lessons in driving too ? Really ? All of us ?

I first took 'advanced' bike training in 1979, when it was a highly unusual thing to do (for context, in about 1993, 600 people passed the IAM bike test. By about 2000, TV-AM alone had about 1,000 members) then went on to be involved in many aspects of it. But, I changed my views.

As a result, although I could and would provide it, my emphasis changed, often working on fixing problems or on specific aspects.

Part of that change was dissatisfaction with the - to me - diminishing 'returns', benefits, from formal 'advanced' training and tests. The main safety gain comes from the improved 'hazard perception' (&/or other terms) and planning rather than technical riding skills. But, paradoxically, there were some skills that either weren't being taught, or were being taught badly.

It also made sense to me that, wherever possible, the most beneficial skills should be included in training for all learners, not left to chance post-test.

I voluntarily have taken unofficial post-test car training, as part of an online group who occasionally meet up. I'm not the quickest driver, but I like to be smooth (biggest compliment for me is when passengers fall asleep).

On one drive I was shown a technique for balancing the car through bends. A couple of months later, friends asked me to supervise their daughter while she drove. I explained the technique. Absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be on L training.

[iansoady]

If your son /daughter/signif other was starting out on their bikey journey, at what point would you tell them that they can stop learning now? Curious... And you must have ridden with, or watched, others and thought "if you keep riding like that, you're going to come unstuck".

I'm assuming that's for me. We all learn at times of course, but do we learn or need to learn more than just the usual riding ?

Strange. Maybe I'm odd, but whatever I do I like to improve my skills whether it's guitar playing, analysing complex texts, soldering - and yes, riding and driving. I probably have more experience than most here (55+ years on both 2 and 4 wheels) but still learn things. For instance, what's this "balance" thing Horse talks about?

Of course there are many sorts of skill and to my mind the thing that isn't (but should be) taught is not about physical bike control etc techniques but is much more about attitude.

[weeksy]

If your son /daughter/signif other was starting out on their bikey journey, at what point would you tell them that they can stop learning now? Curious... And you must have ridden with, or watched, others and thought "if you keep riding like that, you're going to come unstuck".

I'm assuming that's for me. We all learn at times of course, but do we learn or need to learn more than just the usual riding ?

Strange. Maybe I'm odd, but whatever I do I like to improve my skills whether it's guitar playing, analysing complex texts, soldering - and yes, riding and driving. I probably have more experience than most here (55+ years on both 2 and 4 wheels) but still learn things. For instance, what's this "balance" thing Horse talks about?

Of course there are many sorts of skill and to my mind the thing that isn't (but should be) taught is not about physical bike control etc techniques but is much more about attitude.

Do you ? Walking to the shops ? Eating toast ? Brushing your teeth ? writing an email ? putting shopping in the car ? You deliberately try and learn to do these things better day in day out ?

[Horse]

For instance, what's this "balance" thing Horse talks about?

[Derail]
Probably something that many people already do But when I moved from bikes to cars, I wasn't

Balance (in this context) also applies to bikes.

Although (see other thread) there may be situations where trail braking is useful (downhill sequences of bends, perhaps), by and large, for most people, on-road, in most circumstances, the bike 'works' if slowing and any gear change is completed with the bike straight and upright, ahead of the turn in point.

Get it settled, under a bit of drive, then turn.

So not biking side to side balance, this is front and back.

In a car, you can do the same setting up. Until being shown it, I thought I was - but actually I was mentally timing it for bike throttle response, instead of feeling what was actually happening. That meant initial turn in before opening the throttle was really affecting balance.

So, in a modest engined car, while still straight, slow earlier, get the throttle slightly on enough to get weight distribution slightly towards the rear. 'Seat of the pants' feel is pushing you back into the seat.

At the start of the turn, apply a bit of steering, then apply throttle to pull you through the turn. Often you won't need any 'dramatic' steering.

SotP feel is towards the rear rather than 'out of the bend'. Car feels more level, passengers don't experience chunder-inducing sideways feeling. I've noticed a passenger see a bend ahead, reach for the handle above the door, then let go of it as we went through the bend.

[Horse]

Walking to the shops ? Eating toast ? Brushing your teeth ? writing an email ? putting shopping in the car ? You deliberately try and learn to do these things better day in day out ?

Here's a good one:

Boiling the kettle. Listen to it. Just as it comes to the boil, it will change sound as the water becomes an even temperature throughout. Switch it off then.

Saves a little bit of time if you're desperate for a tea, but also saves electric, every time.

[Rockburner]

Do you ? Walking to the shops ? Eating toast ? Brushing your teeth ? writing an email ? putting shopping in the car ? You deliberately try and learn to do these things better day in day out ?

These are not things that can cause death if done badly (well.... ymmv).

[slowsider]

We all learn at times of course, but do we learn or need to learn more than just the usual riding ? Using that logic we should all be taking advanced lessons in driving too

Vehicle control? Probably not. 'Adequate' will be enough for many.
Hazard management? Hell yeah. Look at all the 'adequate' drivers on the road

[Horse]

Do you ? Walking to the shops ? Eating toast ? Brushing your teeth ? writing an email ? putting shopping in the car ? You deliberately try and learn to do these things better day in day out ?

These are not things that can cause death if done badly (well.... ymmv).

I had a colleague that had to be taught how to answer the office phone. We nearly killed him ...