Driver kills 2 people, sentenced for 2 years suspended

[weeksy]

I think you really need to remember that Pedestrians, cyclists and horses have an ABSOLUTE RIGHT to be on the road - everyone else must be licensed and that license can be removed at any point.
The sooner the privileged attitude of driving being a "right" gets removed the better.

The absolute right to stay alive, despite dicing with fast moving things that can easily kill them, didn’t really count for much in the end did it.

Those two blokes were absolutely right.
Dead. But right.

That makes it sound like they'd been confrontational, or riding badly, or doing something they shouldn't.

There's a difference between what he's saying of having an absolute right to be somewhere and your saying 'absolutely right'.

For me, the fact that it's 'careless driving' in whatever context we see that, says to me that killing 2 people deserves 'more' than a slap on the wrist. How much more, that i don't know.

But blokey for whatever reason/mistake killed 2 people who will never be going home to his family again... However, he will.... That seems ridiculously unfair.

Life is unfair and it's a game of chance... but these guys were not pushing limits, boundaries, risks etc... they were simply pedalling along a road.

[JackyJoll]

When I was a company director I drove a Saxo VTR.

It was my company and I was the only employee.

I had a Luton-top Leyland Sherpa. I was quite a dangerous bastard in it too.

[JackyJoll]

The sooner the privileged attitude of driving being a "right" gets removed the better.

120 years so far. We’ve been sent for a long weight!

In the meantime, let’s make reasonable effort to avoid being killed. It’s the code of the West, pilgrim.

[Yambo]

I don’t let my kid ride around on roads where fast motor cars might run him down through momentary lapses of concentration.
There is a reason for that. Right or wrong doesn’t even come into it.

It's possible that the two dead blokes parents didn't allow their kids to ride where fast motor cars might run them down but when they became adults they made their own decisions, pretty much like your son will probably do.

Let's face it, his dad has done a few dangerous things in his life, why shouldn't he?

[Noggin]

The bit I find weird in the UK law is that, as someone already said, you can go to jail for breaking the speed limit on an empty road in good conditions but kill two people with a car and, because you weren't speeding, you don't go to jail


A friend of mine's best mate was killed by a lorry driver turning right across him a few years ago. My mate wanted the driver jailed or worse. He saw him outside the court one time and also in court. And whilst he still did want him jailed, he realised that the driver was never going to live his live the same way. A split second error changed his life completely. Ok, he's still here and he can see his family. But he will never be the same person.

I think normal human beings never recover from that sort of incident. They never fully get over the guilt of killing someone - despite it being an accident. Yes, there are some fuckwits that cause death by car and carry on as before, immune to guilt. But most I think spend the rest of their life 'paying' in some way


I still don't understand how you can go to jail for speeding on an empty road tho!

[JackyJoll]

I still don't understand how you can go to jail for speeding on an empty road tho!

Yeah, but it’s quite easy to avoid doing that level of speeding.

[Noggin]

I still don't understand how you can go to jail for speeding on an empty road tho!

Yeah, but it’s quite easy to avoid doing that level of speeding.

Oh I get that, but Jail??

[JackyJoll]

I still don't understand how you can go to jail for speeding on an empty road tho!

Yeah, but it’s quite easy to avoid doing that level of speeding.

Oh I get that, but Jail??

On the level of an individual case, it’s harsh.

These sentencing policies are made to address a problem though.

[slowsider]

I still don't understand how you can go to jail for speeding on an empty road tho!

Yeah, but it’s quite easy to avoid doing that level of speeding.

Oh I get that, but Jail??

Points, fine, ban. Jail requires some aggravating factor.

Who was jailed?

[slowsider]

As JJ says, attitudinal adjustment.
Do you ever intentionally lose concentration?

[Horse]

He carried his remorse to his grave

A colleague was driving, hit a pedestrian. Fatal. He was exonerated, completely (I don't the circumstances). He committed suicide soon after.

[Screwdriver]

I think they call it dangerous driving, like that motorcyclist who filmed himself doing something like 180mph, then came home and no kittens were harmed, but they called it dangerous driving and jailed him. Meanwhile killing two men through a lapse of concentration is just bad luck apparently.

I fall in between two camps here. The A40 is (or at least was) my local stamping ground. A brilliant road for some high speed testing, engine, performance, tyres, suspension. It was my mini racetrack not so long ago, I may even have some footage of some seriously high speed antics. Slow down for the village section, go ballistic at the GLF signs (as they once recently were). Failing that, I certainly have some (very) high speed footage of someone coming back on the M40 on a bike very similar to mine...

Since it is "off the clock" on a Fireblade, probably a bit silly to post it now. In fact, I think he did it twice on a couple of different 'Blades.

We digress. Had an idiot such as myself or the unnamed rider doubling the speed limit plus change actually performed such a stunt and caused an accident, then I'd expect them to be rotting in jail as we speak. OTOH if I had been pottering along within the speed limit in the van say, and for whatever reason, not seen a couple of bicycles then my "crime" is less grave. One cannot prosecute a person for the severity of an unintended outcome.

Had the driver been on the phone (even hands free one assumes) then that would have been another matter. That would constitute deliberate action which purposely takes ones attention away from the immediate job at hand leading directly to those serious consequences. But that particular road (which is fucking lovely by the way) has blind bends, steep tree lines banks, lots of up and down, blind crests etc. To the extent that I would suggest it is positively idiotic to take a bicycle down there. You really are taking your life in your hands on a fast open road like that.

Each to their own but if someone chooses to share a road especially a single lane carriageway with cars vans trucks and motorcycles then they are effectively choosing to risk serious harm as a result of a relatively minor infraction. I have never actually caused an accident due to inattention or smidsy but there have been times when it's been very close. Pretty sure we have all seen a bicycle simply pop into existence right in front of our eyes as if from nowhere.

This chap obviously didn't see the bicycles and there are a million reasons why that may have happened, the most likely being inattention. Such a minor error led to vastly more serious consequences because those riders chose to put themselves in harms way. It should not be like that of course, the roads should be safe for everyone and there ought to be more attention paid towards bicycle safety. The upshot of that would be (will be??) blanket speed limits everywhere. Pick a number, halve it...

We don't really want that do we?

[Mr. Dazzle]

When you do silly speeds on a bike (or anything else on the road!) you know full well you're breaking the law - I think that's the key difference here.

If you go out on your bike and do 180mph are you expecting to kill someone? No, of course you're not. But might it be a reasonble thing to expect? Yes, it probably is I'd say. But you chose to do it anyway. You know it's dangerous and it's illegal for a reason, but you do it anyway. You've intentionally disregarded the laws put in place to safegaurd.

An error in concentration when you're otherwise driving within the law is different isn't it? It's a little bit like the difference between murder and manslaughter*, in that one is something you meant to do and the other isn't. I said a little bit BTW

And yes, I know driving is dangerous in all situations legal or not. I'm just saying why I think the OP didn't get a prison sentence and speeding 'solo' bikers do.

*BTW I can only ever read that word as "Mans Laughter"

[MingtheMerciless]

This paragraph from the Judge annoys me;

"He simply hadn’t seen them. It may have well been that along that road where there are trees on either side of the road and in other places no trees leaving shade and bright sunlight that in those shadows and bright light he simply missed them."

The Police would have investigated the scene, they would know the point of impact, the angle of the sun, the weather, shading/light issues etc at the time of the accident and they would be able to work out the length of time they were in the drivers field of vision. Two people died, at least establish the full facts and don't give him an excuse.

I hate pedalling on A roads and avoid them at all costs , it does feel like inevitability BUT I am allowed too be there.

[DefTrap]

It sounds like there is reasonable doubt that on that stretch of road at that time he honestly didn't see them. I agree that the judges comments could have made that clearer. It's shit but it happens.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The rationale for speeding is emotional, i.e. what might happen.

Sorry....only just seen this.

I thought you did at least some of a law degree? What might happen is a central part of our legal system innit? Knowing what might happen as a result of your actions and then taking them anyway is one of the key differences between intent, recklessness and negligence innit? Which in turn is one of the differences between a slap on the wrist and time in the big house.

[Mussels]

I just watched an article about people wanting a law changes for hit and run, the surprising bit was that a hit and run that killed a pedestrian got a 4 month suspended sentence. So a lot less than this bloke got.

[wheelnut]

The rationale for speeding is emotional, i.e. what might happen.

Sorry....only just seen this.

I thought you did at least some of a law degree? What might happen is a central part of our legal system innit? Knowing what might happen as a result of your actions and then taking them anyway is one of the key differences between intent, recklessness and negligence innit? Which in turn is one of the differences between a slap on the wrist and time in the big house.

I'm not skilled in law, although to some degree I understand the yardsticks that are applied. ​

Intent, malice aforethought, etc, is a factor, but the object element or consequences of the action is the other part of it, hence you can be sentenced on the outcome even if you didn't mean it. Mens Rea, Actus Reus, etc.

In this comparison you have a chap that rode his motorcycle intentionally over the speed limit with no consequences, versus a man who operated his vehicle carelessly (at least for a part of his journey) resulting in the death of two bicyclists.
I understand the yardsticks applied, but I disagree with the sentencing.

As far as I know, there’s two yardsticks applied when charging for careless/dangerous

Driving that falls below the standard expected by a reasonable and competent driver = careless driving

Driving that falls far below the standard expected by a reasonable and competent driver = dangerous driving

If ‘death by’ is added to careless then that kicks into being an either way criminal offence.

I think there’s also an under the influence of drink or drugs bolt on which kicks the death by careless into an indictable offence (death by dangerous is an indictable offence on its own).

[Docca]

It’s a tragic loss.

I found the explanations in the article ( and the conversation on this thread) helpful.

That said, my own view is supporting the outcome. It’s a tragic loss, but a careless accident. If all retribution was based on emotional responses, we’d live in chaos.

The guy will never forget this. I know he still gets to go home, but he’s killed to people and that’s on him for life.

I saw an undercover Golf GTI in Cambridge last week btw.

[Bigjawa]

Our depot is on an unlit rural road, there's a guy who cycles along it, in the dark, dresses in black with only a home bargains LED torch on his helmet, no reflectors, no rear light. Not like he can't afford lights as he rides a dear looking road bike.

How that guy has avoided death is an absolute miracle.