The Brexit thread

[irie]

We are seeing what is happening now.

What we're actually seeing in the UK are the combined effects of Brexit and Covid.

So is the grass really greener the other side of the wall?

It is worth noting that EU countries, including those not directly affected by Brexit, are also having pretty much the same logistical problems, supply dislocations, energy price hikes, Covid disruptions, and far higher levels of unemployment, etc., as the UK.

[slowsider]

Just like when the two faced politicians signed the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties without the promised referendums, ... in the hope that at some point the worm will turn.

I've not heard 'revenge' as a justification for Brexit before.

No, but Europe before Maastricht and Lisbon was a different animal where we (any of the countries, not just Britain) had more power to stop the creeping Federalization. I would probably have voted to stay in a pre-Maastricht Europe. We were told we would have a Referendum before fundamental change we didn't get it because our pro-Europe politicians were afraid we would vote the wrong way. They just railroaded us into ever-closer union and the worm eventually turned. And bit, hard!

Now we will all have to live with it, for good or bad.

Pre-Maastricht there were, what, 12 member States? The US agonized over whether to Federalise as it grew, with a similar number of colonies. They seem to have done well on it.

[Cousin Jack]

Pre-Maastricht there were, what, 12 member States? The US agonized over whether to Federalise as it grew, with a similar number of colonies. They seem to have done well on it.

There are many in places like Texas who would argue that they have far too much Federal control.

[Horse]

Pre-Maastricht there were, what, 12 member States? The US agonized over whether to Federalise as it grew, with a similar number of colonies. They seem to have done well on it.

There are many in places like Texas who would argue that they have far too much Federal control.

Hmmm 'Texit' ... gotta certain ring to it ...

[slowsider]

We are seeing what is happening now.

What we're actually seeing in the UK are the combined effects of Brexit and Covid.

So is the grass really greener the other side of the wall?

It is worth noting that EU countries, including those not directly affected by Brexit, are also having pretty much the same logistical problems, supply dislocations, energy price hikes, Covid disruptions, and far higher levels of unemployment, etc., as the UK.

Meat carcasses sent to EU for butchering amid UK worker shortage

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... r-shortage

[Count Steer]

Pre-Maastricht there were, what, 12 member States? The US agonized over whether to Federalise as it grew, with a similar number of colonies. They seem to have done well on it.

There are many in places like Texas who would argue that they have far too much Federal control.

Can you imagine Texas without Federal control?

[Cousin Jack]

Yes. I am not sure I would like it much, but I can imagine it.

[irie]

We are seeing what is happening now.

What we're actually seeing in the UK are the combined effects of Brexit and Covid.

So is the grass really greener the other side of the wall?

It is worth noting that EU countries, including those not directly affected by Brexit, are also having pretty much the same logistical problems, supply dislocations, energy price hikes, Covid disruptions, and far higher levels of unemployment, etc., as the UK.

Hey demo, have you accepted the above and retreated into your bunker, or would you like some supporting links?

[irie]

Pre-Maastricht there were, what, 12 member States? The US agonized over whether to Federalise as it grew, with a similar number of colonies. They seem to have done well on it.

There are many in places like Texas who would argue that they have far too much Federal control.

Can you imagine Texas without Federal control?

Russia is also a federal state. slowsider strikes again.

[slowsider]

As are Germany and Switzerland. Your point?

[Cousin Jack]

As are Germany and Switzerland. Your point?

Swiss cantons have rather more independence than EU countries.

[slowsider]

As are Germany and Switzerland. Your point?

Swiss cantons have rather more independence than EU countries.

Really? to do what? Secede? The EU has that baked-in.

[Cousin Jack]

Swiss cantons have rather more independence than EU countries.

Really? to do what? Secede? The EU has that baked-in.

To manage their own affairs

The Swiss Federal Constitution declares the cantons to be sovereign to the extent that their sovereignty is not limited by federal law. Areas specifically reserved to the Confederation are the armed forces, currency, the postal service, telecommunications, immigration into and emigration from the country, granting asylum, conducting foreign relations with sovereign states, civil and criminal law, weights and measures, and customs duties.

Each canton has its own constitution, legislature, executive, police and courts. The cantonal constitutions determine the internal organisation of the canton, including the degree of autonomy accorded to the municipalities, which varies but almost always includes the power to levy taxes and pass municipal laws; some municipalities have their own police forces.

As at the federal level, all cantons provide for some form of direct democracy. Citizens may demand a popular vote to amend the cantonal constitution or laws, or to veto laws or spending bills passed by the parliament.

[DefTrap]

Hey demo, have you accepted the above and retreated into your bunker, or would you like some supporting links?

He probably can't be arsed. You could have some real world experience rather some select links?

No queueing, shortages and disruptions in my EU corner. We sat amused while the UK squeaked about lorry drivers, no beer and fought over a litre of unleaded.
Yeah some fuel prices have gone up, I think you'd expect that.

[slowsider]

Meat carcasses sent to EU for butchering amid UK worker shortage

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... r-shortage

That's been happening for a long time.

Also fish, it gets caught in UK waters, then shipped abroad for filleting, then shipped back - this happens mostly because it's cheaper to do it that way. If you go to a fishing town and drive round the dockland industrial areas you'll see lots of empty buildings that used to process fish but now it goes elsewhere. And things went in this order.... skilled fish process workers - fish processing moved elsewhere - workers lost their jobs.
It didn't move because there was no one there to process it.

There's a cluster of Brazilians living in a couple of towns in Ireland, brought in on visas to service the meat processing industry due to skilled worker shortage. The opposite of what you describe.

[Pirahna]

There's a cluster of Brazilians living in a couple of towns in Ireland, brought in on visas to service the meat processing industry due to skilled worker shortage. The opposite of what you describe.

Well I suppose that at least proves the point that shortages are across the whole of the EU, not just the UK.

One of those towns is Roscommon where I've been spending a lot of time recently. They (the Brazilians) have been here a long time, just asked dad, he reckons a good 30 years.

[slowsider]

There's a cluster of Brazilians living in a couple of towns in Ireland, brought in on visas to service the meat processing industry due to skilled worker shortage. The opposite of what you describe.

Well I suppose that at least proves the point that shortages are across the whole of the EU, not just the UK.

Except your point was about jobs moving overseas. With the right key-worker labour mobility policy they don't.

[slowsider]

Except your point was about jobs moving overseas. With the right key-worker labour mobility policy they don't.

"...the right key-worker labour mobility policy"

I thought for a minute that you might be suggesting that the decline of British manufacturing wasn't anything to do with Mrs Thatcher, but your clever phrase means it was, because she didn't line the right workers up to take the jobs

Her labour mobility policy was voiced by Norman Tebbit.

[Saga Lout]

Her labour mobility policy was voiced by Norman Tebbit.

Of course, nobody actually listened to what Norman Tebbitt said, they just listened to how his words were twisted by the media.

[slowsider]

Her labour mobility policy was voiced by Norman Tebbit.

Of course, nobody actually listened to what Norman Tebbitt said, they just listened to how his words were twisted by the media.

Grammar school boy and airline pilot telling unemployed people what his dad did? It was patronizing before it was ever twisted.