Suspension, what do you look for in a bike ? What would you change and why ?

[weeksy]

Was having a debate with @Couchy yesterday regarding suspension stuff, fork cartridges and shocks etc.

We (or at least I did) came to the conclusion that what suspension experts wants and is optimal, isn't necessarily optimal for all riders. I know, shock horror, some riders are different. But bear with me, i'm going somewhere with it.

Lets assume the rider is 95kg kitted up, the suspension guys with throw .95 roughly springs in there and stiffer oil. Now sure i get that helps with the sag, the rebound, etc. But where it misses out is on compliance, bumpy roads and rubbish surfaces? Wouldn't it be better in some way to go for an improved damper, but keeping the spring rate on the softer side ? The bikes i've loved the suspension on the most are the KTM 690 and the Honda CB1000R, both are described as being notoriously under-sprung for European sized riders... But they feel soft, compliant, easy and less 'crashy' over bumps and imperfections.

Then you get bikes resprung, reworked etc and they are stiff, harsh.... sure they'll work lovely at Brands GP or Silverstone, but are they really 'right' for the local B4094....

Can you get a suspension setup that's appropriate for both the leafy B roads and a GP circuit... i dunno....

[KungFooBob]

I just ride them how they come.

Unless they're shagged, then they get fixed, usually as cheaply as possible.

[weeksy]

I just ride them how they come.

Unless they're shagged, then they get fixed, usually as cheaply as possible.

Why Bob ? Why not try at least to make it better with a twiddle of the spanners ? Even if you don't go down the road of replacing shock/fork bits.

Was your ex-race bike standard?

[Dickyboy]

Surely damping just slows down the suspension movement so you might still bottom or top out if your bike is under or over sprung?

[weeksy]

Surely damping just slows down the suspension movement so you might still bottom or top out if your bike is under or over sprung?

So you then need stiffer/softer springs, but that brings with it the complexities of the above scenario then surely ? Where your bike is too stiff for B roads or too soft for tracks ?

[KungFooBob]

Why Bob ? Why not try at least to make it better with a twiddle of the spanners ? Even if you don't go down the road of replacing shock/fork bits.

Was your ex-race bike standard?

Both race bikes were raced on the suspension they came with. It was after market, but I didn't fit it.

I had K-Tech do the forks on my Blade and fitted a WP Shock, to be honest I couldn't really tell the difference with the forks, the shock made a big difference, but only because the OEM one was utterly fucked.

The Bullet and the KRS have Hagon shocks, which are about as cheap as you get without going Chinese.

I just thrash the tits off whatever I'm given.

[Dickyboy]

So you then need stiffer/softer springs, but that brings with it the complexities of the above scenario then surely ? Where your bike is too stiff for B roads or too soft for tracks ?

Yes, but that's always gonna be the way surely, must admit that I only twiddle to the extent of getting std suspension set up as soft as possible before weave and fork dive become apparent (for the road & haven't really done any track days on my own bikes).

[Taff]

when I replaced the shock on my Tiger with a Nitron, it was apparently set up for my weight and I was told to just bolt it in and away you go.
The first thing I found was the back end was raised so much the headlight beam was only going 10ft in front of the bike, and it was so stiff every bump in the road was a kick up the arse so I had to back off the pre-load loads until it was comfortable.

[Mr Moofo]

when I replaced the shock on my Tiger with a Nitron, it was apparently set up for my weight and I was told to just bolt it in and away you go.
The first thing I found was the back end was raised so much the headlight beam was only going 10ft in front of the bike, and it was so stiff every bump in the road was a kick up the arse so I had to back off the pre-load loads until it was comfortable.

You do know pre-load doesn't affect the suspension stiffness - only the ride height.

[weeksy]

i'd be curious to hear what @SSR Suspension @Sideshow Pob think of this sort of discussion as they're our resident (sometimes anyway) suspension experts. Can there be a setup that's equally at home on track (and fast A roads) and bumpy B roads too, or is that simply 2 sides of a coin and not possible to get correct for both.

[Mr Moofo]

My major bug bear is too soft suspension. The diavel came with extremely soft rear ( and when I was larger that was an issue) and incredibly stiff from suspension.
Best std suspension was on the KTM 950 SM. Only thing I did was raise the rear ride height with preload - and drop the forks slightly

[weeksy]

Best std suspension was on the KTM 950 SM. Only thing I did was raise the rear ride height with preload - and drop the forks slightly

the older school WP stuff was absolutely great. It was also really good at having both the adjustment on stickers on the bike, plus the fact the adjustments they specified really DID make the bike do what they said it would. Standard to sport was basically 5 clicks on the 3 adjustments, but really did make it nicer on the track etc.

[Taff]

when I replaced the shock on my Tiger with a Nitron, it was apparently set up for my weight and I was told to just bolt it in and away you go.
The first thing I found was the back end was raised so much the headlight beam was only going 10ft in front of the bike, and it was so stiff every bump in the road was a kick up the arse so I had to back off the pre-load loads until it was comfortable.

You do know pre-load doesn't affect the suspension stiffness - only the ride height.

I don't really understand how all the twiddly bits work tbh, (and have no real desire to learn ) but that does make sense.
I've just looked at the shock that I bought and it has....

The NTR ADV R1 shock has one damping adjustment. The adjustor knob affects both compression and rebound simultaneously for simple setup

so I must have had a twiddle with that as well as the preload

[Ditchfinder]

My bikes are at opposite ends of the spectrum - The Griso has very short travel and so needs stiffer springs to stop it bottoming out and is too harsh at both ends but on smoother roads is lovely. It might get a Stelvio shock thrown at it (slightly longer) next year as it's when the rear hits the bumps it can be a bit lairy. When it gets bumpy I tend to tense up and lock my arms a bit more which just makes things worse so hoping that if the rear isn't pogoing around I might relax more and the front will be OK.

The Sprint is a wallowy old hector - although i'm not sure how much of that is down to the damping oil escaping from the fork seals and a 25 yr old rear shock. On bumpier stuff if you're not pushing on it's a lot more forgiving though and you never feel like a bump or pothole mid corner is going to change your line too drastically. I'm hoping that new seals and fork oil and a service of the rear linkage pivots will sort the worst out but YSS shocks are available for £300 new so i'll keep eyes peeled for a 2nd hand one.

As pre-load is only for ride height is that more for getting front/rear weight bias straightened out then ? (I backed mine most of the way off as I only ride solo so maybe a bit more would take some of the work off the rear shock and make it more compliant hmmmm?)

[Dickyboy]

The Sprint is a wallowy old hector

My GS is much the same if i forget to up the damping as well as preload when loaded up with pillion and luggage, nip up the compression to max & it's right as rain.

[Demannu]

The reason it's so hard to get suspension that works road/track is they are totally different environments.
You don't brake on the road how you brake at the track.
You don't get rear weight transfer the same way either.
Also, EVERY fork cartridge kit is developed for the circuit. Pretty sure someone who knows what they're doing could modify the internals so that there is more compliance, but I would imagine the development cost would be 4 figures.
As my bike has separate legs for rebound/compression, I messed about with oil weights until I was happy. Not quite as scientific but effective nonetheless.

[weeksy]

The reason it's so hard to get suspension that works road/track is they are totally different environments.

I get that and hence my discussion/thoughts really. With 99% of my riding being on the road, it makes more sense to have mine right for road stuff and ignoring the track. Especially at the moment as i'm not sure when track will happen.

[weeksy]

The reason it's so hard to get suspension that works road/track is they are totally different environments.

I get that and hence my discussion/thoughts really. With 99% of my riding being on the road, it makes more sense to have mine right for road stuff and ignoring the track. Especially at the moment as i'm not sure when track will happen.

And even then it's a compromise, on the road you've got everything from race track grade tarmac through some nice curves, to repaired and pot-holed nasty stuff on blind bends.
Even on the TT where they make sure the road surface is good, I've heard racers talk about places where the suspension doesn't really work properly because it's set up for the majority of stuff that is different.

I'd have it set for 'fast road' and then put up with the compromise.

Mostly i agree, but where i rides and the roads i pick keep me away from "fast road", the only time i see that is when i hit the A4 to Calne, which hasn't been often lately. The rest are more goat tracks
2019-12-29_01-23-28 by Steve Weeks, on Flickr

2019-03-29_10-13-33 by Steve Weeks, on Flickr

[MrLongbeard]

I just ride them how they come.

Unless they're shagged, then they get fixed, usually as cheaply as possible.

Same.
Aside from Harley which I've set the preload to what the book says it should be.

[Noggin]

I've never understood suspension. Always used to call it magic! Probably didn't/doesn't help that I rode BlackBirds for 8 years and they were extremely limited in the adjustment on the standard units! A friend (suspension guru!) did do something to it a bit but the main change was a spacer to increase the height

The first bike I ever had the suspension 'done' on was the Zx10r for track. And BLOODY HELL it did make a massive difference. It was amazing. I still rode it on the road but as it was set up for track, I didn't really concentrate on it on the road. Just rode it!!


TBF, in general I'm more like KFB - get it and ride it. If it works it's great!! LOL I wouldn't know if the suspension didn't work. I could say how it was handling/reacting, but I wouldn't know what would cause/solve that!!


I do think that suspension is a bit of an artform or magic. And I'd rather get someone with knowledge to sort it! LOL But I probably wouldn't bother for road stuff so much