Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DOP with prop gun!

[slowsider]

OOI, if someone passed you a firearm, would you check the chamber was clear, even if you were told what state it's in? That's what surprised me about this incident.

Pretty much standard stuff, it was drilled into me as a cadet.
But old Alec is an anti gun nut, so rules don't apply to him as he knows best

But that's the last piece of holey cheese - a 24 year old armourer, and the gun being used earlier in the day for target practice, allegedly, are the bigger issues.

[porter_jamie]

Its a bit ironic that baldwin is an anti gun hollywood liberal type, making a movie glamourising guns, and he accidentally shot someone because of poor basic gun safety.
I would bet a lot of money that if the armourer and or Baldwin was an NRA card carrying type this wouldn't have happened. Not in a million years.

Basic gun safety stuff is beaten into you if you care to take training, and it sounds like several of the fundamentals were ignored. Shocking, totally unnecessary.

As for this previous 'accidental discharges' there is no such thing. They are negligent discharges. Someone is always responsible for it. And if someone hands you any firearm then that person is you. They are designed to put holes in things, including people. Do not fuck about.

Pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger ffs. Wtaf was he thinking. I couldn't do it and i wouldn't do it even if it meant i lost my job over it. Even if i knew 100% it was empty. Fuck that. It is so fundamental that it even feels wrong shooting a person in a computer game which is why i only play doom and quake fps.

[Cousin Jack]

Well, it sounds like an accident to me, albeit one brought about by negligence.

As to who's negligence it was, we shall see.

I was reading today that the crew were using the guns to shoot tin cans earlier that morning. I would have thought any movie gun would have been kept well away from people messing about and if it was used should have been thoroughly checked by the armourer when it was returned and handed out. It seems the armourer was inexperience as well and had complaints on their last film.

I've never handled a real gun, but I would have thought that anyone who spends their lives around them would check to see if they are loaded when handed one, be that the armourer, director or actor.

I have handled a lot of guns, I was a member of 2 pistol clubs and have acted as Range Officer for one of them.

Rule No 1 is always check the gun when it is handed to you, even if someone tells you it is safe, YOU need to check.
Rule No 2 is always hand over a 'safe' gun with the action open and SHOW it to be safe.
Rule No 3 is never accept a gun unless you are competent to do Rule No 1, or Rule No 2 has been done for you and YOU have seen it is safe.
Rule No 4 is NEVER allow live ammunition in the area where guns are going to be dry fired or fired with blanks.
The armourer is guilty of criminal negligence. Alec Baldwin was also negligent, he has handled guns as props before and should have known better.

[Ant]

Why did a prop gun need to be real and loaded?

[JackyJoll]

Why did a prop gun need to be real and loaded?

It didn’t need to be real. That’s why all the “gun safety” stuff above should be irrelevant.

I really expect that pistols on film sets in the U.K. are not real. Any of you guys got Ealing Studios experience?

In the crazy USA however, there would always be a risk that a real gun would get onto the set, even if they intended to use dummy ones.

[Cousin Jack]

Why did a prop gun need to be real and loaded?

If a prop gun is going to look real it needs to spit flame out the muzzle. So 'replica' types with no hole in the barrel are no good. You could build a special 'prop' gun with some modifications so that it could not fire real bullets, but would still spit flame, but unless you were very clever indeed it would act as a hand grenade if someone loaded it with real bullets. It would also cost a small fortune to build and test. Why would you bother? A competent armourer/gun safety person could use a real gun far cheaper and with very little risk. The key word is 'competent'.

[JackyJoll]

So what do they use for pistols on U.K. TV and film cop story sets?

Real ones? Unlikely.

[Cousin Jack]

So what do they use for pistols on U.K. TV and film cop story sets?

Real ones? Unlikely.

Pretty unlikely in the UK. Usually pretty unconvincing too.

And of course Hollywood is not in the UK

[JackyJoll]

Usually pretty unconvincing too.

Can’t say I’ve noticed.

And of course Hollywood is not in the UK

Hollywood (and even New Mexico) might have something to learn from places where they don’t shoot people dead while making entertainment films.

[Yambo]

^^^^
Yeah, that. There are lots of times when you hand a weapon to someone and you simply tell them the state it's in. There may not be time to clear the weapon yourself. The most I'd do when told it's loaded is check the safety catch is on.

The guy who handed Baldwin the gun (the armourer?) is either a liar or incompetent. There's a lot of other things wrong it seems, poor procedures etc but the armourer is holding the buck.

[Mr. Dazzle]

You two are both ex-soldiers though, so you'd have a very differnet attitude towards firearm safety than a soft palmed actor. You probably also attribute significantly less 'romance' to guns and shootin' stuff than an Hollywood armourer too.

[porter_jamie]

OOI, if someone passed you a firearm, would you check the chamber was clear, even if you were told what state it's in? That's what surprised me about this incident.

Not necessarily.
If I was passed a gun and told it was loaded and made ready then why would I check the chamber? I'd have to remove the magazine, cock it and remove the chambered round to check it.

pull the bolt back a little way and eyeball there is one in the chanber. would work on a semi auto pistol, rifle, shotgun or even a bolt gun if you wanted to be sure. even works on a 22lr

[Cousin Jack]

OOI, if someone passed you a firearm, would you check the chamber was clear, even if you were told what state it's in? That's what surprised me about this incident.

Not necessarily.
If I was passed a gun and told it was loaded and made ready then why would I check the chamber? I'd have to remove the magazine, cock it and remove the chambered round to check it.

pull the bolt back a little way and eyeball there is one in the chanber. would work on a semi auto pistol, rifle, shotgun or even a bolt gun if you wanted to be sure. even works on a 22lr

The real issue here was that it was a revolver, probably a single action with a loading gate rather than a swing-out cylinder (most 'Western' revolvers were) and it WAS loaded. It should have been loaded with blanks, but one or more live rounds were in the gun. Eyeballing the brass bit wouldn't help.

[slowsider]

You two are both ex-soldiers though, so you'd have a very differnet attitude towards firearm safety than a soft palmed actor. You probably also attribute significantly less 'romance' to guns and shootin' stuff than an Hollywood armourer too.

They've both taken my question somewhat out of context, though.

in the field

and

may not be time to clear the weapon yourself

implies that there are other more pressing threats, which wasn't the case here. We can guess that in a cowboy film it would be a revolver, which should be simple to check, But even if you check, if you are expecting blanks, and you see a load, your bias is to assume that what you see is what you want to see.

[porter_jamie]

Not necessarily.
If I was passed a gun and told it was loaded and made ready then why would I check the chamber? I'd have to remove the magazine, cock it and remove the chambered round to check it.

pull the bolt back a little way and eyeball there is one in the chanber. would work on a semi auto pistol, rifle, shotgun or even a bolt gun if you wanted to be sure. even works on a 22lr

The real issue here was that it was a revolver, probably a single action with a loading gate rather than a swing-out cylinder (most 'Western' revolvers were) and it WAS loaded. It should have been loaded with blanks, but one or more live rounds were in the gun. Eyeballing the brass bit wouldn't help.

yes, and you know i know this, i was answering the point about removing the magazine. Revolvers dont have removable magazines, in case you were not aware..
(you could argue a muzzle loading revolver with a removeable wheel is i suppose, in case you want to get pedantic again)

[Screwdriver]

It seems that recent investigations have concluded there were 500 live rounds present on this movie set.

How the fuck does that happen?

[Pirahna]

It seems that recent investigations have concluded there were 500 live rounds present on this movie set.

How the fuck does that happen?

Because it's America. A fair percentage of the people on the set will own guns and either carry them openly, or if that's not allowed, have them in their vehicles. Add in some spare ammunition and it's very easy to get to 500 rounds.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It seems that recent investigations have concluded there were 500 live rounds present on this movie set.

How the fuck does that happen?

Maybe they were doing full "shoot the gun and bullet makes and 'ole in something" scenes. They'd have to be a bit special to do that though.

Or maybe they're just a bit special.

[Screwdriver]

Maybe they were doing full "shoot the gun and bullet makes and 'ole in something" scenes. They'd have to be a bit special to do that though.

Or maybe they're just a bit special.

Anecdotal evidence the film crew were shooting at tin cans for fun during down time.

Beggars belief really that any group of people could be so casual with firearms management when at some stage they will be used in a "pretend" shooting. Baldwin will probably wriggle out of it and I'm assuming the armorer is going to carry the can. Someone is going to get sued big time though...

[porter_jamie]

Your point still doesn't work though,

yes it does, as the point i was responding to was this.
"if I was passed a gun and told it was loaded and made ready then why would I check the chamber? I'd have to remove the magazine, cock it and remove the chambered round to check it."

so no you dont have to take the mag out, you can just slide it back a bit and eyeball it. you can confirm if it actually does have one in the pipe (what some call condition 1) or it doesnt (condition 2, ie full mag, chamber empty) if you were not sure and racked it you could end up with a round on the floor.

dont you strip (empty) your mags every day to save the springs?

the baldwin thing is very straightforward in my opinion. Dont point a gun at someone. His fault. dont employ inexperienced staff - his fault as he is producer. i think he will probably get away with it as he is a liberal anti gun type.