The Brexit thread

[Count Steer]

It would be clear to me too....if it was the speech that was presented in the link above.

[irie]

It would be clear to me too....if it was the speech that was presented in the link above.

The final paragraph of the Zurich 19th September 1946 speech:

Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.

Friends and sponsors, but not members any more than America or Russia would be.

[irie]

What Churchill said on 11th May 1953 in the House of Commons seems perfectly clear to me:

Where do we stand?
We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition "with" but not "of" — we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire. One of the anxieties of France is lest Germany, even partitioned as she is now, will be so strong that France will be outweighed in United Europe or in the European Defence Community. I am sure they could do a lot, if they chose to make themselves stronger. But, anyhow, I have always believed, as an active friend of France for nearly 50 years, that our fortunes lie together.

He said that eight years after the first speech.

Eight years in politics is a long time, in a time when the world was very fluid, what he said (or intended) in 1953 was a development of what he said (or intended) in 1946.

My view is that he changed his angle somewhat in those eight years, what's your view?

See the above post in reply to Count Steer. Churchill's view remained the same.

[Count Steer]

So, we've established that Churchill thought a united states of Europe was a good idea after WWII but that, as the UK was a global power on a par with Russia and the USA, the three of us could have a sort of executive role over it.

When that delusion was over, we tried to join and were told 'Non!'

Then they said 'Oui' and 'Ja'.

Several years of peace and prosperity followed.

In the end though we finally accepted that they really wouldn't do what we told them, cue teddy/pram spatial distancing. They even wanted to end our 'highly democratic' veto and leave things to actually getting agreement among the members. The utter bounders. So off we went to become a global power....with our super-close trade partner USA and best mates Russia.

Did I miss anything out?

[irie]

Interpretation depends upon what Churchill meant by "Europe". By what Churchill said at the end of his 1946 Zurich speech ...

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America — and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well — must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”

... it is perfectly obvious that by "Europe" Churchill meant "continental Europe", because Britain would be a "friend and sponsor of the new Europe".

[Horse]

...with our super-close [no] trade [deal yet] partner USA and best [Salisbury tourists] mates [from] Russia.

Your summary perhaps lost focus towards the end?

[wheelnut]

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Live with it, move on and change any plans I had which at be affected by it.

Fwiw, I don’t think it’s fully played out yet. Once covid (hopefully) becomes endemic and we live with it, the EU will show more petulance and self-protection and NI will be an issue that won’t go away.

[Count Steer]

Anyway, interesting discussion but a long way away from Brexit today. Little point here arguing about interpretations of history.

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Move to Scotland, campaign for independence, join EU.

Edit: See if I can find an Irish great-grandparent.

[Pirahna]

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Get in the camper van (it should be ready at the end of this month ish) and fuck off. Brexit is a tiny reason amongst many others why I don't find the UK an attractive place to live at the moment. I've been fortunate enough to be able to cash in and see what it's like to stay for a while in sunnier places.

[slowsider]

Anyway, interesting discussion but a long way away from Brexit today. Little point here arguing about interpretations of history.

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Move to Scotland, campaign for independence, join EU.

Edit: See if I can find an Irish great-grandparent.

That only qualifies you to play for the national soccer team
It'll have to be a grandparent. And a bag of sand for the certificate

[Saga Lout]

<snip>

Edit: See if I can find an Irish great-grandparent.

You need a grandparent, a great grandparent isn't enough (I've got five of 'em):

"If you are claiming your citizenship through a grandparent who was born in Ireland, you are entitled to apply for foreign birth registration and can subsequently apply for an Irish passport. This is the case even if your parents do not hold Irish passports." https://ie.iasservices.org.uk/irish-pas ... s/#descent

[DefTrap]

Anyway, interesting discussion but a long way away from Brexit today. Little point here arguing about interpretations of history.

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Already doing it, already done it.

It was never "for me", I was altruistically doing it for other who couldn't appreciate what they were missing.
Us clever folk will always get by doing what we want, those whose appreciation of away is satisfied by two weeks leave in the sun will be fine too.

I strongly believe devolution is for thickets too thicky-thick to sort out problems and blame it on "them lot". Plus it's a humdinger of a rallying cry.

[Count Steer]

<snip>

Edit: See if I can find an Irish great-grandparent.

You need a grandparent, a great grandparent isn't enough (I've got five of 'em):

"If you are claiming your citizenship through a grandparent who was born in Ireland, you are entitled to apply for foreign birth registration and can subsequently apply for an Irish passport. This is the case even if your parents do not hold Irish passports." https://ie.iasservices.org.uk/irish-pas ... s/#descent

It doesn't really matter for me TBH. The only recent blood in my veins is Welsh and English

However, the missus has been delving as her great grandmother was born in Ireland (Cork) and there's some question to do with dates and whether her grandfather, who may have been born here - it's not clear yet, qualifies her. It's all to do with some cut-off dates or other*. The £1k is neither here nor there. If she qualifies it's a done deal.

* may have been a loophole that's been closed. Dunno yet.

[slowsider]

I strongly believe devolution is for thickets too thicky-thick to sort out problems and blame it on "them lot". Plus it's a humdinger of a rallying cry.

Can you clarify what you mean by devolution, if it's not local accountability? The Swiss seem to do quite well on it.

[Noggin]

Anyway, interesting discussion but a long way away from Brexit today. Little point here arguing about interpretations of history.

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Move to Scotland, campaign for independence, join EU.

Edit: See if I can find an Irish great-grandparent.

That only qualifies you to play for the national soccer team
It'll have to be a grandparent. And a bag of sand for the certificate

You can apply for an Italian passport based on an Italian Great Grandfather - chauvinistic sods don't include Great Grandmother in that though!!


Not really useful, but I found out cos th niece and nephew have a great grandfather who was Italian - but moved to the States. Their dad is trying to find the italian birth cert so they can try and get italian passports (to go with the UK and US ones that don't help with their wishes to come and do seasons/move here easily!!)

[irie]

So what are people planning? If you’re dead against Brexit then what is your plan? Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Live with it, move on and change any plans I had which at be affected by it.

Fwiw, I don’t think it’s fully played out yet. Once covid (hopefully) becomes endemic and we live with it, the EU will show more petulance and self-protection and NI will be an issue that won’t go away.

Absolutely agree with that ^^^

In any case, times have changed and you either have to adapt and move with them, or become fossilised in the past.

[MrLongbeard]

Or if you’re all for it how will you proceed?

Carry on carrying on, aside form being a damn sight busier ain't not nothing changed here.

[Noggin]

Brexit is a tiny reason amongst many others why I don't find the UK an attractive place to live at the moment. I've been fortunate enough to be able to cash in and see what it's like to stay for a while in sunnier places.

I came to the same realisation about ten years ago, but at the time I couldn't afford to just tune out and drop out, so a different type of move had to be made.

The kick in the nuts was that even thought I don't live in the UK, I do hold a UK passport and Brexit pretty much knackered my retirement masterplan up because now I can't spend as much time as I wanted in the EU and there are tax/VAT implications that will screw me.

My wife can get an Irish passport but I don't believe in it, we're British and buying passports doesn't sit well with me, if we were moving lock, stock and barrel to Ireland then maybe, but other than that it should be illegal IMHO.

If she has the relevant blood lines, then she isn't 'buying' the passport in the way the politicians 'bought' passports for random places because they are rich! She'd only be paying for the registration of foreign birth and then the actual passport (total I think was about £350 for the two)

I am proud of my irish background. I've never lived there but always loved it when I visited and spent a fair amount of time with my Irish Grannie as a kid. My Dad was proud of the Irish background too. So I don't consider I've 'bought' a passport. I am not intending to renew my UK one and the Irish one is the only ID and travel document I plan to use from now on. But then, I no longer have any affinity with the UK. I have family there that I will visit and some awesome friends that, again, I can visit.

My long term plan is to apply for the French passport because I do live here, but that will take a looooong time to be processed (some have said 3-5 years

I do not want to give up the Irish one - but if the French require a swap, then they can have the UK passport swapped for the French!! LOL I won't give up the Irish because it is my connection to my BDad - and I know 100% that he would have been stood by us both and pushing us to apply for it so we can continue to travel as he was able to do on the his 'original' blue passport!!



I do get what you mean - I just don't agree! LOL But that is cos of my BDad and his links to Ireland

[Pirahna]

My wife can get an Irish passport but I don't believe in it, we're British and buying passports doesn't sit well with me, if we were moving lock, stock and barrel to Ireland then maybe, but other than that it should be illegal IMHO.

I'm in Ireland at the moment, at my parents house. Mum is Irish, dad is English, I'm entitled to an Irish passport so why not. Wifey is on a British passport but as long as she travels with me she gets the same rights.

If moving back to the UK will scupper your tax evasion plans I'd suggest getting the Irish passport.

[Noggin]

I 'think' that for visits, you have to fill in forms but there wouldn't be any VAT payable. However - you would be limited to 90 days in 180 days. Not 90 days in each EU country, but 90 days over all of the EU - it's a rolling 180 days I believe but still a pain in the butt

If you are talking about sailing over to the EU and having residency for the two years, then yes, you could well be right about the VAT - except that I'm pretty sure there will be some agreement that means you don't have to pay the full VAT to bring it back into the UK. I haven't looked into it (cos it doesn't apply to me) but I'm pretty sure there will be some agreement somewhere that covers the return