The Brexit thread

[Count Steer]

they called the referendum, they failed miserably in arguing the case (for either side) and they failed to plan for either outcome.

Remain, who either didn't understand the issues, or did but were content with the status quo.

Or thought that we should stay and make it work better. (I believe this was also Thatcher's approach).

[Horse]

they called the referendum, they failed miserably in arguing the case (for either side) and they failed to plan for either outcome.

Remain, who either didn't understand the issues, or did but were content with the status quo.

Or thought that we should stay and make it work better. (I believe this was also Thatcher's approach).

No, that one was already dead when we had pre-Brexit negotiations to get a 'better' deal (which ene fule kno was never going to happen).

Perhaps setting a precedent or omen for the subsequent downward spiral of recent trade deals.

[Cousin Jack]

Or thought that we should stay and make it work better. (I believe this was also Thatcher's approach).

That one was dead in the water. We accepted the changes that meant we didn't have a veto.

TBH the whole Europe thing has been a fiasco. The original Common Market idea was good, we don't tax their goods to buggery, they do the same for us. Then the idiots took over. A United States of Europe is the aim, and it is getting closer. Personally I think that is a VERY bad idea, for about 1001 reasons.

[irie]

Or thought that we should stay and make it work better. (I believe this was also Thatcher's approach).

That one was dead in the water. We accepted the changes that meant we didn't have a veto.

TBH the whole Europe thing has been a fiasco. The original Common Market idea was good, we don't tax their goods to buggery, they do the same for us. Then the idiots took over. A United States of Europe is the aim, and it is getting closer. Personally I think that is a VERY bad idea, for about 1001 reasons.

The adoption of the €euro (Maastricht Treaty) crowned the fiasco and the Lisbon Treaty baked the dysfunctional EU bureaucracy into every participating countrys democratic and economic system.

The current situation is, without doubt, down to our being in the EU. Not down to our leaving the EU but our membership of it.

All the time we spent in the EU saw the gradual erosion of quality people in Parliament. Let's face it, with Brussels calling all the shots, the Mother of all Parliaments didn't have much to do, a bit of tinkering with domestic policies, play with the tax system a bit, reduce the armed forces while taking on a bit of deputy work for the world's policeman and not much else. Is it any wonder that now, when strong leadership is needed, a robust Opposition is essential and clear ideas about the way forward are vital, we have the most useless bunch of politicians in Parliament in living memory.

They've been there for a few years. they called the referendum, they failed miserably in arguing the case (for either side) and they failed to plan for either outcome. They are, basically, a useless bunch of self serving tossers. And no, I didn't vote for any of the fuckin' wankers in the last election.

Boris is a tosser leading a bunch of tossers. Starmer is a woke tosser leading a bunch of anachronistic tossers who don't even understand the meaning of the word Opposition. They say you get the government you deserve. How true is that statement today. Stand for election at the next opportunity DefTrap, you have all the answers and I'd vote for you! Hoonercat, come back to the UK - your country needs you! Or am I the only person that thinks you'd be better than the current crop of wankers?

Membership of the EU caused, permitted, allowed Parliament to be filled with . . . nobodies. It's gonna take a bit of time to sort that out guys. It needs good, smart people to take over the reins (they're going to need to be persuaded) and get us out of the shit and anyone who thinks the wankers that got us into the shit in the first place can do it is every bit as deluded as those wankers.

You're going to need patience. And maybe bribery. You certainly don't need most or the tossers you've currently got. Now stop whinging and saying I told you so, put your money where your mouth is and start campaigning for a seat in Parliament so you can sort things out. You're country needs you, not Romanians with a LGV licence and slaughterhouse experience.

This ^^^ is what you get as a result. Not only in the UK, but in every country in the European Union. No EU government can make decisions without the blessing of the Brussels hierarchy, but the Brussels hierarchy cannot make decisions without the acquiescence of EU member countries. Not difficult to see the dichotomy here.

The European Union is fundamentally dysfunctional but can neither go forwards nor can it go back.

[DefTrap]

What a load of rot.
A whole host of national governments are fooked and it's all the EU's fault? What all of them? There are some quite successful governments that disprove this 'fact' that you old fools blithely trot out. This is your generation of failure don't forget, maybe that's the problem here?

[irie]

What a load of rot.
A whole host of national governments are fooked and it's all the EU's fault? What all of them? There are some quite successful governments that disprove this 'fact' that you old fools blithely trot out. This is your generation of failure don't forget, maybe that's the problem here?

You evidently did not notice that I was referring specifically to members of the EU.

[slowsider]

TBH the whole Europe thing has been a fiasco. The original Common Market idea was good, we don't tax their goods to buggery, they do the same for us. Then the idiots took over. A United States of Europe is the aim, and it is getting closer. Personally I think that is a VERY bad idea, for about 1001 reasons.

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

[Count Steer]

Or thought that we should stay and make it work better. (I believe this was also Thatcher's approach).

That one was dead in the water. We accepted the changes that meant we didn't have a veto.

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

[Cousin Jack]

TBH the whole Europe thing has been a fiasco. The original Common Market idea was good, we don't tax their goods to buggery, they do the same for us. Then the idiots took over. A United States of Europe is the aim, and it is getting closer. Personally I think that is a VERY bad idea, for about 1001 reasons.

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

Most of those were down to France and Germany. Who are the leading lights/drivers in the EU? Same mindset, different people.

[Cousin Jack]

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

[wheelnut]

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

I think NATO has probably been more of a deterrent to european countries getting all shouty with each other than EU membership.

Trading relationships have never really precluded a country's agression. I'm not entirely certain of this but I would hazard a guess that France was Germany's biggest trading partner in 1939.

[slowsider]

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

I think NATO has probably been more of a deterrent to european countries getting all shouty with each other than EU membership.

Trading relationships have never really precluded a country's agression. I'm not entirely certain of this but I would hazard a guess that France was Germany's biggest trading partner in 1939.

The Schuman Declaration was intended to prevent further war between France and Germany and other states by tackling the root cause of war. The ECSC was primarily conceived with France and Germany in mind: "The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries." The coal and steel industries being essential for the production of munitions, Schuman believed that by uniting these two industries across France and Germany under an innovative supranational system that also included a European anti-cartel agency, he could "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

[Count Steer]

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

[Cousin Jack]

"The Schuman Declaration was intended to prevent further war between France and Germany and other states by tackling the root cause of war. The ECSC was primarily conceived with France and Germany in mind: "The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries." The coal and steel industries being essential for the production of munitions, Schuman believed that by uniting these two industries across France and Germany under an innovative supranational system that also included a European anti-cartel agency, he could "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"

The only countries with the ability today to fight and sustain an all-out modern war lasting more than a few weeks are China, Israel, probably Russia and perhaps the USA.

All the rest of us are beholden to China, and/or have populations that would not accept the privations of war.

[wheelnut]

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

And in the process gave Western Europe a common enemy, making it less likely that they’d start throwing rocks at each other.

[slowsider]

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

And in the process gave Western Europe a common enemy, making it less likely that they’d start throwing rocks at each other.

And the period when France was out of NATO ?

[irie]

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

I think NATO has probably been more of a deterrent to european countries getting all shouty with each other than EU membership.

Trading relationships have never really precluded a country's agression. I'm not entirely certain of this but I would hazard a guess that France was Germany's biggest trading partner in 1939.

Of course it's been NATO, the big stick holder.

[irie]

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

True, scrutinise but absolutely nothing else. The Parliament can only take it or leave it - it can not introduce any legislation of its own. Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

[Count Steer]

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

That would be the democratically elected House of Lords introducing new legislation would it? Those people that we voted for?

Glass houses/stones etc.

[Asian Boss]

I'm not sure that it matters -which- industries are being screwed by brexit. The fact that they are and that the issues were foreseeable is enough.

Where's the clapping for the new accidental heroes, the abbatoir workers?

When they were warned they said: "Project fear". And now it's happening they say that's what they wanted all along.

I wonder what else they wanted all along (but never mentioned)?