The Brexit thread

[Horse]

I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to, and I resent any implication that I emailed your boss.

No problem, leave it there then and don't ever accuse me, or associate me, with abuse of workers, implicit or otherwise.

He simply asked whether your views on supply of workforce, and the use of foreign labour, differed between the UK and Dubai?

At least, that's how I read it.

[Asian Boss]

There's no allegation implicit or otherwise, I was asking if this new found concern for underpaid workers was limited to UK lorry drivers, but as ever your thin skin results in yet another snide retort

My retort was because last time we had this argument you made a veiled threat about me being in a vulnerable position and I left the forum because I didn't want another email to my boss.

This time you can roll your dice matey, I've called you on it and you've disappeared up your own arse because you know you don't have any allegation to make, it was just another of your snide pokes at me.

That all sounds rather paranoid.

[Count Steer]

Totally agree and as I said here we are in a once in a decade chance for UK lorry drivers to improve their lot, but what do the lefties here want to do - bring back a glut of foreign labour.
Sad, very sad.

There's a demand and a shortage.

Surely allowing forrin workers to do "essential jobs" was part of the Brexit plan? Some of you seem to be having a bit of trouble with the Brexit you voted for.

And it's a bit rich the comment coming from an (unknown) company in Dubai. The place wasn't built by Emirati hands was it? People living in glass houses etc.

Back to local matters. The gummint did say that they could get labour from the Commonwealth, so yes, they did expect to import workers, just not EU ones. That either slipped by some people's radars or they were happy to see East Europeans replaced by Africans, Asians etc.

[wheelnut]

And it's a bit rich the comment coming from an (unknown) company in Dubai. The place wasn't built by Emirati hands was it? People living in glass houses etc.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/c ... b-emirates

Migrant Workers

Foreign nationals accounted for more than 80 percent of the UAE’s population, according to 2015 International Labour Organization figures.

The kafala (sponsorship) system tied migrant workers visas to their employers, whereby migrant workers are not allowed to change or leave employers without their permission. Those who leave their employers without permission faced punishment for “absconding,” including fines, prison, and deportation. Many low-paid migrant workers were acutely vulnerable to forced labor.

The UAE’s labor law excluded from its protections domestic workers, who faced a range of abuses, from unpaid wages, confinement to the house and workdays up to 21 hours to physical and sexual assault by employers. Domestic workers faced legal and practical obstacles to redress. While a 2017 law on domestic workers does guarantee some labor rights, it is weaker than the labor law and falls short of international standards.

The Covid-19 pandemic has further exposed and amplified the ways in which migrant workers’ rights are violated. Tens of thousands of migrant workers lost their jobs and were trapped in the country in dire conditions. Many lived through strict lockdowns in crowded and unhygienic housing. While thousands left the UAE after facing summary dismissals, many struggled to return to their home countries because of travel restrictions and expensive plane tickets, and were left unable to pay rent or buy food.

Many migrant workers also faced unpaid wages for work they had done before being dismissed. Authorities imposed stricter Covid-19 lockdown conditions on domestic workers, banning them from seeing anyone outside of their employer’s households and warning employers not to allow their domestic workers to meet anyone outside. Given that many employers already confine domestic workers to the household and overwork them, such conditions left them even more at risk of abuse, including increased working hours, no rest days, and physical and verbal abuse.

In March and April, Human Rights Watch and other international human rights organizations called on governments to take several steps to adequately protect migrant workers from the spread of the virus, including in immigration detention and labor accommodations.

[Potter]

He simply asked whether your views on supply of workforce, and the use of foreign labour, differed between the UK and Dubai?

At least, that's how I read it.

The last time we had this discussion (on the other place) he threw a barbed comment about worker abuse in Dubai and he also dropped a veiled threat about being careful how I respond to people because I was in a country where what I type can be maliciously used against me. Then hey presto my boss got an email - which was laughed off but I still had to leave the form then come back after some time with a different user name. I’m not explicitly saying the email came from him, I’m just talking generally, like he was.

Paranoid? I remember Docca telling us about a bloke that was stabbed after a forum argument and I also remember someone turning up to Stigs house to visit harm upon him and the police had to take him away.

So there is a specific history with him and this theme. He knew what he was doing even if he doesn’t have the balls to admit it now I’ve stood up and made it an issue.

The actual subject is interesting, if you’d have asked it I’d have explained about Emiratisation and how they look after the indigenous population, whilst also making immigration generated income pay for it. On average blue collar workers earn 5-6 times what they would back home and their expenditure goes towards helping local people. White collar workers might not earn anywhere near those multiples but we contribute expertise and generate wealth that gets fed back again to help local people.
Companies pay visa costs and have to use local services and also have to show an audited In Country Value score where they’re measured on how much they give back to the country in terms of locals employed and investment.

Typing on my phone btw

[Potter]

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/c ... b-emirates

Foreign nationals accounted for more than 80 percent of the UAE’s population, according to 2015 International Labour Organization figures.

The kafala (sponsorship) system tied migrant workers visas to their employers, whereby migrant workers are not allowed to change or leave employers without their permission. Those who leave their employers without permission faced punishment for “absconding,” including fines, prison, and deportation. Many low-paid migrant workers were acutely vulnerable to forced labor.

The UAE’s labor law excluded from its protections domestic workers, who faced a range of abuses, from unpaid wages, confinement to the house and workdays up to 21 hours to physical and sexual assault by employers. Domestic workers faced legal and practical obstacles to redress. While a 2017 law on domestic workers does guarantee some labor rights, it is weaker than the labor law and falls short of international standards.

The Covid-19 pandemic has further exposed and amplified the ways in which migrant workers’ rights are violated. Tens of thousands of migrant workers lost their jobs and were trapped in the country in dire conditions. Many lived through strict lockdowns in crowded and unhygienic housing. While thousands left the UAE after facing summary dismissals, many struggled to return to their home countries because of travel restrictions and expensive plane tickets, and were left unable to pay rent or buy food.

Many migrant workers also faced unpaid wages for work they had done before being dismissed. Authorities imposed stricter Covid-19 lockdown conditions on domestic workers, banning them from seeing anyone outside of their employer’s households and warning employers not to allow their domestic workers to meet anyone outside. Given that many employers already confine domestic workers to the household and overwork them, such conditions left them even more at risk of abuse, including increased working hours, no rest days, and physical and verbal abuse.

In March and April, Human Rights Watch and other international human rights organizations called on governments to take several steps to adequately protect migrant workers from the spread of the virus, including in immigration detention and labor accommodations.

[/quote]

Oh ok, here we go.

I’m not a government, if you feel strongly about it go and challenge them.

It’s a neat distraction from backstabbing the UK drivers, but you’ve been seen.

[Count Steer]

Hands up all those that think that lorry drivers conditions and infrastructure should be improved in the UK?

1,2,3..............oh, pretty unanimous then.

Hands up all those that think that shortages of drivers in the UK needs to be addressed by speeding up testing and recruiting more UK drivers?

Oh....pretty unanimous too.

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

Oh, that's pretty much unanimous too.

All motions carried nem con I believe.

[Nidge]

The last time we had this discussion (on the other place) he threw a barbed comment about worker abuse in Dubai and he also dropped a veiled threat about being careful how I respond to people because I was in a country where what I type can be maliciously used against me. Then hey presto my boss got an email - which was laughed off but I still had to leave the form then come back after some time with a different user name. I’m not explicitly saying the email came from him, I’m just talking generally, like he was

You're a nasty piece of work Iccy, that's the second time you've you've levelled an untrue and malicious accusation at me and it pisses me off. Rather than drag the forum into such a petty delusional bollocks I'll leave you to it.

[Horse]

Oh ok, here we go.

I’m not a government, if you feel strongly about it go and challenge them.

It’s a neat distraction from backstabbing the UK drivers, but you’ve been seen.

So, back to the question re foreign workers, UK and dubai, acceptable or not, etc?


As I've said, I worked out there briefly. A lot of that was monitoring large parts of the Municipality workforce. I did see them well-equipped with (usually) good ppe. I did see how they were moved around, in buses. Less good (by 'our' standards). And I heard about living conditions. If true, very less good.

Challenge the government? That's why I was there.

[wheelnut]

Oh ok, here we go.

I’m not a government, if you feel strongly about it go and challenge them.

It’s a neat distraction from backstabbing the UK drivers, but you’ve been seen.

I realise you're on one big fishing trip, but you just need to be sure you're stood on steady ground before you cast your line.

[Cousin Jack]

Hands up all those that think that lorry drivers conditions and infrastructure should be improved in the UK?

1,2,3..............oh, pretty unanimous then.

Hands up all those that think that shortages of drivers in the UK needs to be addressed by speeding up testing and recruiting more UK drivers?

Oh....pretty unanimous too.

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

Oh, that's pretty much unanimous too.

All motions carried nem con I believe.

Are you deliberately trying to scupper 'handbags at dawn'

[DefTrap]

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

There's been a Truckers 'apartheid' decision already? Fantastic.
That was in the Brexit smallprint I imagine (not that they gave a toss about truckers at the time).

[Count Steer]

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

There's been a Truckers 'apartheid' decision already? Fantastic.
That was in the Brexit smallprint I imagine (not that they gave a toss about truckers at the time).

Just covering all the bases.

[Horse]

As I've said, I worked out there briefly

Have a cheesy tourist pic

@work images include other people

Dubai - biggest traffic cone in the World.jpg (709.05 KiB) Viewed 416 times

[slowsider]

You're much taller than I expected.

[Mussels]

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

There's been a Truckers 'apartheid' decision already? Fantastic.
That was in the Brexit smallprint I imagine (not that they gave a toss about truckers at the time).

There was something in the Brexit big print about stopping cheap European labour driving down wages.

[Horse]

You're much taller than I expected.

I was stood on a bench. The guy holding the camera is a midget. After that it's all geometry and perspective stuff.

Just one of those statements is not true.

[DefTrap]

There was something in the Brexit big print about stopping cheap European labour driving down wages.

You'd have thought a little bit of thinking would have gone into what happens after the buggers had been sent home then.
They could have used the project fear list and just started ticking them off.

[wheelnut]

You'd have thought a little bit of thinking would have gone into what happens after the buggers had been sent home then.
They could have used the project fear list and just started ticking them off.

That, along with stopping all the driving tests during lockdown. You'd have hoped someone in the DoT would have had a lightbulb moment.

[Count Steer]

Hands up all those that think that lorry drivers conditions and infrastructure should be improved in the UK?

1,2,3..............oh, pretty unanimous then.

Hands up all those that think that shortages of drivers in the UK needs to be addressed by speeding up testing and recruiting more UK drivers?

Oh....pretty unanimous too.

Hands up all those that think that the improved conditions and facilities should be available to drivers arriving with loads from the continent as well as 'local' drivers be they 'home bred' or have residential status?

Oh, that's pretty much unanimous too.

All motions carried nem con I believe.

Are you deliberately trying to scupper 'handbags at dawn'

As far as I could see, there was only one handbag - swinging at some invisible opponent. For the most part everyone seems to be in violent agreement about improving conditions, recruiting and training more drivers. We might differ on why things have happened, why it took current events to highlight the issues and what the costs of sorting it will be (and who carries the cost) but I don't remember anyone saying that we should bring back some cheap labour and leave everything as it is. Some people have had a laugh that the government might have to do that but I honestly don't remember anyone calling for it.

It may be that that is how any suggestion that we should have stayed in/should rejoin the EU has been interpreted. Who knows?