20 mph blanket speed limits

[Hot_Air]

Are we using speed reduction as the solution for almost every road safety problem? We're tipping over from being sensible (lower limits where speeding has caused numerous crashes) to counter-productive (so many inappropriately low limits they encourage disregard for the rules).

The Welsh government is consulting (via leading questions) about introducing a blanket 20 mph speed limit in built-up areas. While the cyclist in me isn't opposed to a 20 mph limit where appropriate, I'm convinced that ever-lower limits ultimately reduce many drivers respect for the rules. The blanket approach is the problem, not a 20 mph limit in the right places.

Another road safety charity has been campaigning to make speeding "as socially acceptable as drink driving". But any driver or rider knows it's nuanced: driving at 71 mph on a clear motorway is hardly like driving after a few pints of Special Brew.

At what point do lower speed limits become counter-productive?

[weeksy]

Counter productive to what?

[Hot_Air]

Counter-productive in terms of road safety. If an increasing number of people lose respect for the rules of the road, the more rules they will disregard. This increasing disregard can ultimately cause less safe driving. I’ve noticed it where 60 mph limits locally have been reduced to 40. It’s resulted in more dangerous overtaking (not a problem when the road was a 60 limit).

[Yorick]

It's 30 kph in towns here now.

[Count Steer]

Counter productive to what?

Air pollution in built up areas/by schools for a start.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Doesn't matter what the speed limit is if it isn't enforced, but you will end up with the majority doing 20mph and a few doing what speed they like.

[Horse]

[Skub]

Lowering the speed limit has everything to do with raising revenue,it's only dressed up as a safety issue.

[Taipan]

A lot of London has 20mph limits. I think we'll see a lot more of this in urban areas.

[Hot_Air]

I reckon 20 mph will become the UK's default limit in built-up areas because London, Wales and Scotland have already embraced it.

With the Welsh government already committed to a national default 20mph limit for urban and village roads, the Scottish Government has announced that it plans for 20mph to become the norm in built-up areas.

[Hot_Air]

Lowering the speed limit has everything to do with raising revenue,it's only dressed up as a safety issue.

If it's solely about raising revenue, Intelligent Speed Assistance (compulsory on all new cars from 2022) will curtail this revenue: Drivers will have 'no leeway' on speeding with expected new EU driving law that restricts your car

[Count Steer]

Lowering the speed limit has everything to do with raising revenue,it's only dressed up as a safety issue.

If it's solely about raising revenue, Intelligent Speed Assistance (compulsory on all new cars from 2022) will curtail this revenue: Drivers will have 'no leeway' on speeding with expected new EU driving law that restricts your car

'Drivers can still override this system by pressing down hard on the accelerator'. (For now, at least).

Rather that the UK plan to adopt it too.

[Horse]

Lowering the speed limit has everything to do with raising revenue,it's only dressed up as a safety issue.

If it's solely about raising revenue, Intelligent Speed Assistance (compulsory on all new cars from 2022) will curtail this revenue: Drivers will have 'no leeway' on speeding with expected new EU driving law that restricts your car

'Drivers can still override this system by pressing down hard on the accelerator'. (For now, at least).

Vienna Convention on Road Traffic

One of the fundamental principles of the Convention has been the concept that a driver is always fully in control and responsible for the behavior of a vehicle in traffic

[Hot_Air]

Rather that the UK plan to adopt it too.

Not only has the UK retained the EU law for compulsory Intelligent Speed Assistance, but our ISA data will be sent to the European Transport Safety Council: Big Brother Grows Bolder in the EU & UK

the European Transport Safety Council [...] will obtain the data from all equipped vehicles’ data recorders. Yes, your (reportedly anonymized) driving habits will be downloaded and reviewed by Governmental authorities. This will happen whether you give your permission or not.

So much for Brexit!

[1913]

We have had a lot of 20 mph speed limits in place for the past 3 years.

Two big problems, no one who tries can drive at a consistent 20 mph so the traffic is bunching and braking all the time, the second is that the vast majority are ignoring it.

As is said, if no one obeys a law, it is not a good law.

[MingtheMerciless]

A lot of London has 20mph limits. I think we'll see a lot more of this in urban areas.

When I had to drive as part of my job I hated driving at night in London. The organisation had a strict speeding = major disciplinary/sacking policy so driving in certain parts of London at 0300 was a nightmare as all you did was have a slammed Merc/BMW (drug dealer/gang/yoof mobile) about an inch off your bumper flashing their lights and behaving aggressively as you did 20mph along a deserted street. I had a couple of colleagues suffer road rage incidents doing 20 and the guy behind flipping out thinking they were winding him up.

Also 20mph seems to make people more distracted and"switch off" regarding driving as the speed is so slow.

[Horse]

Not only has the UK retained the EU law for compulsory Intelligent Speed Assistance, but our ISA data will be sent to the European Transport Safety Council: Big Brother Grows Bolder in the EU & UK

the European Transport Safety Council [...] will obtain the data from all equipped vehicles’ data recorders. Yes, your (reportedly anonymized) driving habits will be downloaded and reviewed by Governmental authorities. This will happen whether you give your permission or not.

Be interesting to see how it copes with locations where two roads run parallel.

And track days

[GuzziPaul]

As a person working for a large National organisation with a strict no speeding policy (clean licence required), 20MPH are innapropriate. 30mph limits are ignored by a large number of people. 20mph limits will be ignored even more but sound good in council meetings. They tried to introduce a 20mph limit on our estate because of the schools in the area, but at school time speeds are very low with all the kids been taken to schools in cars

[MrLongbeard]

I thought 20mph limits had to be self enforcing...

[The Spin Doctor]

Counter-productive in terms of road safety. If an increasing number of people lose respect for the rules of the road, the more rules they will disregard. This increasing disregard can ultimately cause less safe driving. I’ve noticed it where 60 mph limits locally have been reduced to 40. It’s resulted in more dangerous overtaking (not a problem when the road was a 60 limit).

In Denmark four or five years back, they raised limits on some rural roads for that very reason, from 60 kph to 80 kph if I remember right. The reduction to 60 caused exactly the problems you mention.

In Derby (in the 80s I think), they lowered the speed limit on a dual carriageway from 40 to 30 and the average speeds INCREASED - the theory was that people felt that 40 was a reasonably appropriate speed for the road and stuck to it, more or less, but 30 was seen as inappropriate so people ignored it completely.

And some departments in France have reversed the nationwide 90 kph to 80 reduction and gone back to 90 kph already.