Tax hike to pay for social care... not very Tory!

[slowsider]

TBF I don't see why they shouldn't take every last penny. Why does living suddenly become free when you're old?

Too right, I'm gonna piss my money up the wall whilst I can, before I'm in need of care

That lifestyle should save you from being a burden on the state

[Count Steer]

This should be interesting......

OK. I'll start. It's not free, you're paying for it while you work. Some quick bag of fag packet calcs. 40 years work at (in today's money) an average of £60k for example = ~£0.75M in direct taxation and £0.3M in indirect taxation. Add in taxation on pension until you need care. You work, you pay, you get 'social security'.

It's not ring-fenced - you have been paying for the previous generation of old codgers. Your care will be paid for by the future generation of old codgers.

Seems fair.

[Mr. Dazzle]

TBF I don't see why they shouldn't take every last penny. Why does living suddenly become free when you're old?

This should be interesting......

OK. I'll start. It's not free, you're paying for it while you work. Some quick bag of fag packet calcs. 40 years work at (in today's money) an average of £60k for example = ~£0.75M in direct taxation and £0.3M in indirect taxation. Add in taxation on pension until you need care. You work, you pay, you get 'social security'.

That's a hell of an average working life salary!

How much did your birth, education, any other health care, police security, fire service, etc. etc cost for your whole life?

Most people don't even break even when they're working, let alone when they're retired.

How many times have you complained about benefit scroungers in your working life? If you've got money in the bank why should the government pay your way? Bearing in mind that this hypothetical "you" probably didn't even pay their way while they were working.

[Horse]

Your care will be paid for by the future generation of old codgers.

Or not.

There's a lot of things that used to be funded that no longer are.

Student loans have replaced free tuition and grants. Actually, that's not a great example because student loans are storing up massive debts for the future.

[Count Steer]

That's a hell of an average working life salary!

How much did your birth, education, any other health care, police security, fire service, etc. etc cost for your whole life?

Most people don't even break even when they're working, let alone when they're retired.

How many times have you complained about benefit scroungers in your working life? If you've got money in the bank why should the government pay your way? Bearing in mind that this hypothetical "you" probably didn't even pay their way while they were working.

It's not an outrageous figure. I only allowed 40 years, so (again in todays money) a hypothetical 20k at 25 years old peaking at 100k at 65.
If there wasn't enough going into the coffers to cover costs then taxation was too low/the coffers were badly managed. The idea is those that can contribute for the benefit of all. That's society.
But my point was, you say free, I say it's been far from free.

Following your logic, if you've got money in the bank, why should health care be free for you and your family?

[Horse]

Most people don't even break even when they're working, let alone when they're retired.

Does the Chancellor just print more money to cover their shortfall (and also of those who never pay pay PAYE)?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Most people don't even break even when they're working, let alone when they're retired.

Does the Chancellor just print more money to cover their shortfall (and also of those who never pay pay PAYE)?

Nah, those lovely rich people make up for it. Bless 'em.

[Mussels]

Why does anyone need any money in the bank? Just turn over all your wages to HMRC and they can makes sure everyone gets the housing and care they need, socialist utopia.

[Count Steer]

Most people don't even break even when they're working, let alone when they're retired.

Does the Chancellor just print more money to cover their shortfall (and also of those who never pay pay PAYE)?

Nah, those lovely rich people make up for it. Bless 'em.

And having done that, you want to reduce them to penury when they need the services that they've supported all their working lives. Nice.

[Mr. Dazzle]

No I don't, I want them to pay for stuff. Like they always have.

They didn't expect the government to pick up their tab so they could sit on their money while they were working. Why does it change when they get old?

[Mussels]

Maybe the NHS should start charging people as well, swap your house for heart surgery?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Maybe the NHS should start charging people as well, swap your house for heart surgery?

The simple fact is, there's not enough money to cover the costs now. People should have paid more tax in the past to account for the fact we'd all be living longer* - but WTF is gonna do that?

The numbers just don't stack up. You can gnash all you like about "I paid in my whole life" but the simple fact is that "you", being an average person, probably didn't pay enough in. You didn't expect free accommodation and care before so why do you expect it now?

Obviously you can make arbitrary distinctions about what is fair and what isn't (i.e. why do parents get tax advantages, why does everyone get healthcare when some people are healthy and have private cover through work while others are asthmatic anaemic diabetics with a poor balance, why does he get to park close to the shops etc.), but to me I don't see why you should get free "rent" if you've got cash to pay for it yourself.

*Waits for SL to appear and mention smoking and drinking

[wheelnut]

I’m pretty sure that the £86k limit will be raised in subsequent years under the radar.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I’m pretty sure that the £86k limit will be raised in subsequent years under the radar.

Well if this is true...

According to R4 this evening, the £86k is the amount spent on "care", and does not include "hotel" fees. I'm assuming that care providers will make it clear how much of their fees are for care, and how much for accomodation etc.

They won't need to.

[Horse]

People should have paid more tax in the past to account for the fact we'd all be living longer

Ah. Overlap with 'pension defecit'?

[Count Steer]

People should have paid more tax in the past to account for the fact we'd all be living longer

Ah. Overlap with 'pension defecit'?

Easy way to get rid of that Hoss. Don't pay people a state pension until they've sold their house and only got 4d left.

'gnashing'.....

[Saga Lout]

I'm happy to cough up.

That's very generous of you. Why haven't you been paying extra already? You know it's allowed.

As for your thread title: did you really expect this Blue Socialist government to act like Tories?

[Count Steer]

The UK has always been propped up by the wealthy, which makes it all the more strange when the poor moan about them and want to see them taxed into poorness, with the net result that then everyone would be poor. People moan about trickle down economics and on paper it does look inequitable, but in the real world without trickle down economics you've got a pretty miserable place to be.

Or: The UK has always provided an environment* where, if you work hard, you can become wealthy, which makes it all the more strange when (some) wealthy moan about it and want to contribute as little as possible, with the nett result that it reduces the opportunity of others to better themselves.
Some people moan about trickle down economics because they don't want anything trickling anywhere other than down...to their children**.

*thanks to many things including labour, enterprise and governance.
** so they don't have to work hard to become wealthy.

[Yambo]

FFS, bring your kids up right and they'll look after you when it becomes difficult to look after yourself.

Care home is an oxymoron.

My kids won't get much from me when I die but that's OK with both of them because tbh, they're not kids any more and they are well aware that they need to think of their own old age. They stand on their own two feet and don't expect handouts now so I doubt they'll be looking for handouts later.

If you've got money in the bank why should the government pay your way?

The government isn't going to pay your way. The government is raising taxes so WE pay your way.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The UK has always been propped up by the wealthy

Every country which has ever collected taxes has been propped up by the wealthy. Basic numbers innit? The poor take out less than they put in, so the wealthy have to put in more than they take out. All that changes is where the line marked rich/poor is drawn*.

*Somewhere around Watford Gap would be my guess