Afghanistan

[Screwdriver]

Holy shit, there's rools on what can and cannot be discussed here? If that's true, why'd you bring up Trump's big beautiful wall? It "stands" as a monument to his presidency.

If you follow the thread it was because some others tried to contrast with my comments regarding the hopelessly bumbling Biden so called "presidency", bang on topic with this latest Biden/Obama catastrophe. While neither are what you might call decent human beings, one has consistently caused a massive litany of disasters on the geopolitical landscape, the other has (almost) built an allegedly dodgy wall.

I would list the Biden failures but I think this Afghanistan blunder is the last straw. The worm has turned and even the polarised partisan media are beginning to ask questions beyond what flavour ice cream their man likes to eat. I am tempted to quip the senile old fool carries a cue card to remind him what flavour that is.

Sad thing is, he probably does!

[Mr Moofo]

Two things that we should have learned is:
1) It was pointless interfearing in Afghanistan. I hate to use him as a reference, but Trump is correct, that some people have to take responsibility for their own counties. It was pointless invading and "taming" Afghanistan when Pakistan is still the hot bed of radicalism. Perhaps that should have been the target in the first place.
2) The sad thing about the Talibans rip ein both cases is that there has to be a huge amount of support for them in Afghanistan - there is no way that they could have swept to power is the week or so without a huge ground swell of local support. The Western media seems to forget this - and go on about the West "abandoning" Afghanistan. And army of around 300k just capitulated to a fighting force of 'rebels'. Says more about the local "needs" than anything.

If the West go in to "manage" - then they become imperialist and colonialist - enforcing the white mans beliefs where they are not wanted. When the leave , they are abandoning the people ...
I feel sorry of those who lost their lives, and their families in fighting a war that was even more futile than Vietnam

"Every country has the government they deserve" - Joseph De Maistre

[Screwdriver]

I was thinking more about what Al Qaeda are going to get up to now that the US have armed them to the teeth.

About those US supplied arms, what administrations were responsible? Which one turbocharged the sales?

That is how the world works. We are after all on the side of the imperialist capitalist aggressor. US foreign policy makes strategic, politically motivated decisions which are by any measure, aggressive, destabilising and often baffling (look at Bush/Bin Laden).

Unfortunately the most successful model is being played out by the CCP with their "belt and road" initiative. China has being growing in economic terms at a staggering 10% pa for the past 40 years! Russia are playing a similar game and of course you have a similar type of centralised authoritarian model with religion as it's primary mechanism: radical Islam.

While it is easy to forget we are all enjoying a tremendous amount of personal freedom, it does come at a cost. We owe our freedom to the sacrifices made by our troops and it is a hard won battle that extends way beyond a single human lifetime.

It might not make sense from the comfort of our own sofa but in the UK you won't be dragged from your home and thrown in prison for criticising the government of the day. Worryingly, the Biden administration (whoever they are!) are busy dismantling the US constitution based model and appear to be heading towards a more authoritarian regime.

We digress. The upshot is you have to decide which side you're on. Do you want to live under a communist regime, dictatorship, extremist religious authoritarian state or stick with the imperialist capitalist aggressor?


PS Had to laugh at the article linked above which criticises Trump for continuing to support a strategy initiated by Obama because Obama only "reluctantly agreed" to carry on supplying arms.

[wheelnut]

I realise you're on an anti-biden/pro-trump tirade screwd (with a little bizarre conspiracy theory seasoning thrown in), but I'm not sure this is a move that's split down party lines. The American public do seem to want to be out of Afghanistan and that's what they're getting. Trump put it in to play and Biden is following it through.

I think there's more unease on this side of the pond about the regime that's filled the vacuum than there is in the US, but even in this country most realise it was an untenable situation and the troops had to pull out sometime.

[Cousin Jack]

I think there's more unease on this side of the pond about the regime that's filled the vacuum than there is in the US, but even in this country most realise it was an untenable situation and the troops had to pull out sometime.

I agree there is justifiable concern over the 'new' Taliban regime. I think there is also concern over recent US politics. A choice between an idiot and a senile fool is not really what democracy is supposed to be about. Another worrying factor is that all candidates MUST be millionaires, again that isn't in my model of real democracy.

[Screwdriver]

I realise you're on an anti-biden/pro-trump tirade screwd (with a little bizarre conspiracy theory seasoning thrown in), but I'm not sure this is a move that's split down party lines. The American public do seem to want to be out of Afghanistan and that's what they're getting. Trump put it in to play and Biden is following it through.

I think there's more unease on this side of the pond about the regime that's filled the vacuum than there is in the US, but even in this country most realise it was an untenable situation and the troops had to pull out sometime.

I am most assuredly anti-Biden on the grounds that he is president in name only. That's not my definition of democracy...

I would not call myself pro-Trump but I am certainly anti-anti-Trump. Logically you might assume the same meaning but in practice I see a lot of anti Trump nonsense that is simply not true. That is what I object to most strongly. I would object to anti-Biden lies/propaganda too but currently, they're all pro-Biden lies and propaganda...

Without getting into the who said what, who did what, it was clearly a catastrophic error of judgement to withdraw all of the troops, all of the intel gathering and basically all of the US led security for an entire nation without FIRST ensuring the safety of the people they were there to protect. To not even warn your NATO allies is breathtakingly idiotic.


Where is the conspiracy theory?

[irie]

The attack by ISIS-K at Kabul airport is the first clear indication that the future struggle for control of Afghanistan will be between ISIS (or one of it's many factions) and the Taliban. My guess is that this attack will help to push the Taliban into a more moderate position vis-a-vis universal education and women's rights if for no other reason than this will increase general support for the Taliban regime.

[Asian Boss]

Big up the Tipton Taliban. Enforce the Sharia, enforce the Sharia!

[irie]

Big up the Tipton Taliban. Enforce the Sharia, enforce the Sharia!

Shove it sweetpops.

[Mussels]

The attack by ISIS-K at Kabul airport is the first clear indication that the future struggle for control of Afghanistan will be between ISIS (or one of it's many factions) and the Taliban. My guess is that this attack will help to push the Taliban into a more moderate position vis-a-vis universal education and women's rights if for no other reason than this will increase general support for the Taliban regime.

They need to do something to make themselves more popular. Also explains why there was no option of extending the deadline, the Taliban don't have control yet.

[Asian Boss]

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2021/ ... -narrative

[Mussels]

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2021/ ... -narrative

The word 'narrative' in a URL is a great indicator of nutjobs.

[Asian Boss]

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2021/ ... -narrative

The word 'narrative' in a URL is a great indicator of nutjobs.

It's a rant alright. But a good one.

[Mussels]

That was a waste of ten minutes, he was a right conspiracy theory nutter. You'll like it if you are a fan of Corbyn and white poppies.
Some stuff is probably true but it's lost in his liberal warmonger conspiracy rant.

[Bwana]

I realise you're on an anti-biden/pro-trump tirade screwd (with a little bizarre conspiracy theory seasoning thrown in), but I'm not sure this is a move that's split down party lines. The American public do seem to want to be out of Afghanistan and that's what they're getting. Trump put it in to play and Biden is following it through.

I think there's more unease on this side of the pond about the regime that's filled the vacuum than there is in the US, but even in this country most realise it was an untenable situation and the troops had to pull out sometime.

I am most assuredly anti-Biden on the grounds that he is president in name only. That's not my definition of democracy...

I would not call myself pro-Trump but I am certainly anti-anti-Trump. Logically you might assume the same meaning but in practice I see a lot of anti Trump nonsense that is simply not true. That is what I object to most strongly. I would object to anti-Biden lies/propaganda too but currently, they're all pro-Biden lies and propaganda...

Without getting into the who said what, who did what, it was clearly a catastrophic error of judgement to withdraw all of the troops, all of the intel gathering and basically all of the US led security for an entire nation without FIRST ensuring the safety of the people they were there to protect. To not even warn your NATO allies is breathtakingly idiotic.


Where is the conspiracy theory?

You're anti-anti-Trump, yet you've not debunked any propaganda as such.
Trump saw to it that 5000 Taliban prisoners were freed prior to the US exit from Afghanistan.
That was a terrible idea as it gave a massive bargaining chip away. Trump negotiated a deal with the Taliban and excluded Afghanistan's current government officials in the talks. The Taliban negotiated with them after Trump struck a deal that included departing by May 2021 and freeing those 5000 prisoners well before US troops and their allies had departed.

Trump's wall was an engineering failure in a few places, yet you point to it as one of his successes.
Trump's wall is a failure at giving significant resistance to the arrival of illegal aliens, the majority come legally and stay beyond sanctioned time.

Trump's economic policies enhance the upward concentration of wealth.
Trump embarrassed himself on the international stage. Okay, maybe he wasn't actually embarrassed, I'll give you that one, Trump is one of those people that cannot be embarrassed. Not in situations that would embarrass a normal person anyway.

There's also a matter of promoting a violent insurrection on January 6th. And there are the significant number of criminal indictments coming out of his camp.

Would you care to expand on the notion that Biden is president in name only?

[Bwana]

I think there's more unease on this side of the pond about the regime that's filled the vacuum than there is in the US, but even in this country most realise it was an untenable situation and the troops had to pull out sometime.

I agree there is justifiable concern over the 'new' Taliban regime. I think there is also concern over recent US politics. A choice between an idiot and a senile fool is not really what democracy is supposed to be about. Another worrying factor is that all candidates MUST be millionaires, again that isn't in my model of real democracy.

Yeah, it's a rich man's game, however some of the candidates in 2020 were not millionaires.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexand ... 0076fa37c5

BTW, what is your average MP's net worth?

[JackyJoll]

BTW, what is your average MP's net worth?

A kick in the balls.

[Screwdriver]

You're anti-anti-Trump, yet you've not debunked any propaganda as such.
Trump saw to it that 5000 Taliban prisoners were freed prior to the US exit from Afghanistan.
That was a terrible idea as it gave a massive bargaining chip away. Trump negotiated a deal with the Taliban and excluded Afghanistan's current government officials in the talks. The Taliban negotiated with them after Trump struck a deal that included departing by May 2021 and freeing those 5000 prisoners well before US troops and their allies had departed.

Trump's wall was an engineering failure in a few places, yet you point to it as one of his successes.
Trump's wall is a failure at giving significant resistance to the arrival of illegal aliens, the majority come legally and stay beyond sanctioned time.

Trump's economic policies enhance the upward concentration of wealth.
Trump embarrassed himself on the international stage. Okay, maybe he wasn't actually embarrassed, I'll give you that one, Trump is one of those people that cannot be embarrassed. Not in situations that would embarrass a normal person anyway.

There's also a matter of promoting a violent insurrection on January 6th. And there are the significant number of criminal indictments coming out of his camp.

Would you care to expand on the notion that Biden is president in name only?

I would much rather not get dragged to the sidelines since this is not the forum for it but since you have strayed into the territory of factual events rather than the regular Trump bashing:

There was a prisoner exchange as part of an extraordinary agreement to withdraw US troops within a generous (at the time) deadline. I believe it was something like 5000 of yours for 1000 of ours. This was conditional upon there being no further attacks made against US/allied forces. You point at it as if it was a failure and yet that was an extraordinary success, until Biden showed up.

An "engineering failure in a few places"?? I'm not even sure what that means. The Biden admin stopped all work on it and it was never completed. In either event, the wall was more than a physical barrier, it was a statement of intent. It worked in reducing the flow of illegal immigrants significantly and also stem the tide of drugs trafficking eg. fentanyl. Biden put an end to that too and now record numbers of immigrants are flooding the Southern border, the availability and use of fentanyl and other hard drugs has also shot up.

The "violent insurrection" to use the propagandist reporting the current admin and mainstream media would have you believe was a storm in a teacup. Yes a large crowd of people gathered and yes most of them had come from a typically well attended Trump rally but there was little or no violence. It was not "the worst terrorist event in American history" possibly the most egregious over exaggeration the propaganda machine keeps churning out. Endlessly.

There are some very serious questions to be answered such as why were the national guard and additional security refused attendance? Where are all the hundreds if not thousands of hours of footage from this event? Who called for the doors to be opened and the barriers to be removed? What were the known antifa/BLM activists doing in that crowd and what was the FBI/CIA involvement?

You probably don't want to point at economic policies to highlight so called Trump failures. The Biden administration are busy bankrupting America as we speak. A trillion here a trillion there we're spending trillions everywhere. You might want to take a look at where that money is going and how the Biden admin are redefining "infrastructure". It ain't roads and bridges... Inflation is coming, big time.

I will not be drawn into a debate on the veracity of the presidential election. What happened is clear to me. Make your own mind up as we get to see "the most popular president in the history of the USA" for what he really is.

[wheelnut]

I am most assuredly anti-Biden on the grounds that he is president in name only. That's not my definition of democracy...

I would not call myself pro-Trump but I am certainly anti-anti-Trump. Logically you might assume the same meaning but in practice I see a lot of anti Trump nonsense that is simply not true. That is what I object to most strongly. I would object to anti-Biden lies/propaganda too but currently, they're all pro-Biden lies and propaganda...

The media will do what it's always done. You'll have pro-republic and pro-democrat stances. It does seem to be a little more polarised in recent years, and the rise of unchecked internet news feeds hasn't helped, but the choice of your information feeds can depend on your political stance. It does seem to have got more personal lately, and got worse with the Trump/Clinton campaign. Rep or Dem, The Trump/Clinton campaign managed to bring US politics in to the gutter.

Without getting into the who said what, who did what, it was clearly a catastrophic error of judgement to withdraw all of the troops, all of the intel gathering and basically all of the US led security for an entire nation without FIRST ensuring the safety of the people they were there to protect. To not even warn your NATO allies is breathtakingly idiotic.

Firstly, I'm not sure the stated mission was to protect the people of Afghanistan. Secondly, it's great sentiment but achieving that goal is like me planning to be on the moon by Monday.

Where is the conspiracy theory?

I note that whoever is running Biden has asked the Tallyban (sic.) if they could please not burn down the US embassy. Looks bad on TV.

No, what actually happens is the "powers that be" wheel him out as infrequently as possible, pre-authorise any questions and wheel him away as soon as they can. They rely on a blatantly partisan press/social media/big tech to edit out as many of his uncountable gaffes as possible but if you ignore the bias, it's obvious the guy is an idiot.

[Screwdriver]

The media will do what it's always done. You'll have pro-republic and pro-democrat stances. It does seem to be a little more polarised in recent years, and the rise of unchecked internet news feeds hasn't helped, but the choice of your information feeds can depend on your political stance. It does seem to have got more personal lately, and got worse with the Trump/Clinton campaign. Rep or Dem, The Trump/Clinton campaign managed to bring US politics in to the gutter.

Firstly, I'm not sure the stated mission was to protect the people of Afghanistan. Secondly, it's great sentiment but achieving that goal is like me planning to be on the moon by Monday.

Thank you for recognising the rather obvious bias in the media. Easy to forget the YEARS of Russia collusion that was being touted unendingly before during and after the election. Turns out it was all fake, sponsored by Hilary Clinton etc.

The other side of the coin is of course censorship and the "all Trump supporters are terrorists" declaration from the Whitehouse(!) with the backing of big tech who simply deleted any and all accounts which dared voice concerns over current events (at the time). The former president is still being censored by big tech.

You cannot choose to watch a feed that no longer exists though I am keenly aware of the positive feedback inducing loop of the YouTube algorithm. "You like that? You're gonna love this!"

I'm not sure I have a political stance. Certainly my views (anti-BLM, anti-antifa, anti-Islam, anti-CRT, aunty fucking Wendy) are all so called "right-wing" but to me it is merely an expression of common sense.

I **think** the idea was to police Afghanistan to remove the dangerous unmoderated build up of ant-Western radical Islamic forces. It did work and we experienced relative calm for twenty years. That period is now at an end and this catastrophic withdrawal has handed our worst enemy EIGHTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS worth of modern weaponry. Yeah, I saw that number and couldn't believe it either.

I also am struggling to believe the US administration literally handed over a list of Afghan "friendlies" to the Taliban. Names, addresses, biometric data (retina scans, fingerprints) and told them these are the people we want to evacuate. Nominally to allow those on the list to enter the airfield, as one defence official put it "basically they just put all those people on a kill list".

Such ineptitude beggars belief.