In todays news...

[JackyJoll]

l
As I said, I don’t like it.

What would you do if you were Israel, after 7th October 2023?

If I were Israel I would have negotiated a 2 state solution long ago. 7th October would just be another day.

Now it has happened it is even more urgent to agree a compromise, or it will happen again.

That’s reasonably reasonable.

How long ago is “long ago?” Not as long ago as 1948, when the Palestinians had a war instead of a two state solution.

I can’t see the viability of compromise right now, when Hamas guys are stating an intention to repeat and exceed October 7th.

[Cousin Jack]

Hamas is probsbly about 1% of Palestinians

[JackyJoll]

To be fair to the Palestinians, maybe the Arab side should have won the 1948 war, or subsequent wars.

[JackyJoll]

Hamas is probsbly about 1% of Palestinians

They are in control of more than 1% of Palestinians in Gaza.

[MyLittleStudPony]

The statue defenders are the real enemies of free speech

Why is the fear-zone right afraid to debate whether imperial figures are still national heroes?

Britain’s empire ended a long time ago. The fall of statues to slavers and imperial officers is an opportunity for the iconography of our public spaces to finally be brought into line with the democratic approach that has governed public life for almost a century. Protests in response to the Black Lives Movement create the exciting prospect of Britain properly reckoning with the empire it lost generations ago. In its place, they allow us to collectively create a shared national story to reflect and celebrate what, in practice, the country has been since the 1950s: a democratic, self-governing, multi-racial post-imperial society.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ee-speech/

From the river to the sea.

If you destroy the past then those who follow can not learn from it and are condemned to repeat it.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

It seems unlikely we will return to slavery even if the statues are removed.

[JackyJoll]

The statue defenders are the real enemies of free speech

Why is the fear-zone right afraid to debate whether imperial figures are still national heroes?

Britain’s empire ended a long time ago. The fall of statues to slavers and imperial officers is an opportunity for the iconography of our public spaces to finally be brought into line with the democratic approach that has governed public life for almost a century. Protests in response to the Black Lives Movement create the exciting prospect of Britain properly reckoning with the empire it lost generations ago. In its place, they allow us to collectively create a shared national story to reflect and celebrate what, in practice, the country has been since the 1950s: a democratic, self-governing, multi-racial post-imperial society.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ee-speech/

From the river to the sea.

If you destroy the past then those who follow can not learn from it and are condemned to repeat it.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

It seems unlikely we will return to slavery even if the statues are removed.

Society will fall and rise a few times, before the planet freezes. There will be slaves, at times.

[Dodgy69]

I would imagine 99% of the global population want to live in peace. So whose fault is it, we don't.

[Cousin Jack]

To be fair to the Palestinians, maybe the Arab side should have won the 1948 war, or subsequent wars.

To be totally fair to the Palestinians, Balfour should have kept his mouth shut. Politicians should not promise to give away stuff that does not belong to them.

[Cousin Jack]

Hamas is probsbly about 1% of Palestinians

They are in control of more than 1% of Palestinians in Gaza.

A man with a Kalashnikov can control a fair number of unarmed people.

[JackyJoll]

To be fair to the Palestinians, maybe the Arab side should have won the 1948 war, or subsequent wars.

To be totally fair to the Palestinians, Balfour should have kept his mouth shut. Politicians should not promise to give away stuff that does not belong to them.

In 1917, any minister in any government would make promises and even tell lies, to avoid losing the First World War.

[wheelnut]

l
As I said, I don’t like it.

What would you do if you were Israel, after 7th October 2023?

If I were Israel I would have negotiated a 2 state solution long ago. 7th October would just be another day.

Now it has happened it is even more urgent to agree a compromise, or it will happen again.

You’re assuming Hamas want a two state solution. That’s an awfully big assumption.

[ZRX61]

In 1917, any minister in any government would make promises and even tell lies, to avoid losing the First World War.

Isn't it about fucking time WWI ended? We've been fighting it for 110 years FFS

[irie]

l
As I said, I don’t like it.

What would you do if you were Israel, after 7th October 2023?

If I were Israel I would have negotiated a 2 state solution long ago. 7th October would just be another day.

Now it has happened it is even more urgent to agree a compromise, or it will happen again.

You’re assuming Hamas want a two state solution. That’s an awfully big assumption.

Hamas absolutely does NOT want a two state solution!

Preamble
...
Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.

Palestine symbolises the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital.
...

Until and unless Iran withdraws its support for Hamas (and its Covenant), Hezbollah, and its other terrorist proxies, it is obvious that there can never be a two state solution, negotiated or otherwise.

Israel would also have to withdraw to its pre-1967 borders and in addition remove all settlements (about 250) from the West Bank.

[JackyJoll]

In 1917, any minister in any government would make promises and even tell lies, to avoid losing the First World War.

Isn't it about fucking time WWI ended? We've been fighting it for 110 years FFS

Er… yes.

[Yambo]

I think it was Golda Meir who used to delight in telling people that she had held a Palestinian passport and was at one point, a Palestinian.

Personally . . .

It's a family squabble, they're all basically related so we should just let them get on with it.

There's now't as queer as family.

[Demannu]

Apparently we have 10 years until singularity (unless we blow ourselves up first).
I'm taking no chances and being nice to Alexa!

[irie]

I think it was Golda Meir who used to delight in telling people that she had held a Palestinian passport and was at one point, a Palestinian.

Personally . . .

It's a family squabble, they're all basically related so we should just let them get on with it.

There's now't as queer as family.

And keep it in the Middle East.

We have spent centuries dividing Church and state thereby asserting the primacy of secular law as the foundation of our democracy.

The central tenet of Islam is the primacy of religious law over secular law.

Therein lies the irreconcilable conflict between the teachings of Islam and the central foundation of our democracy.

Millions in the Islamic world do not believe in free speech, freedom of religion, democracy, a secular state, free enterprise, and human rights, but these are precisely the principles which are the basic foundations of our Western Democracies.

[JackyJoll]

I just listened to the two minute silence, to hear if anyone shouted about Alan’s snackbar or whatever.

[Cousin Jack]

We have spent centuries dividing Church and state thereby asserting the primacy of secular law as the foundation of our democracy.

The central tenet of Islam is the primacy of religious law over secular law.

Therein lies the irreconcilable conflict between the teachings of Islam and the central foundation of our democracy.

Millions in the Islamic world do not believe in free speech, freedom of religion, democracy, a secular state, free enterprise, and human rights, but these are precisely the principles which are the basic foundations of our Western Democracies.

I would agree that most of the religious leaders of Islam do not agree with most of our freedoms. Some of our Christian religious leaders don't either.

That does not mean that your average punter, Chtistian, Moslem, or any other flavour, wants to be ruled by a theocracy, even one of his choice. Most want to get on with their life, without god-botherers interfering.

[Yambo]

I would agree that most of the religious leaders of Islam do not agree with most of our freedoms.

Quite a lot of them don't agree with other Islamic religious leaders' interpretations of their book. Of course that's the same for the Christian boys as well but at least there's an individual at the top of that pile.