irie wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:16 pm
What's the point of cutting our emissions when.......'somebody else isn't'.
It is instead a case of China increasing their emissions by magnitudes ...
irie wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:16 pm
What's the point of cutting our emissions when China commissioned 38GW of new coal powered electricity generation plants in 2020, three times as much as the rest of the world put together, and in 2021 China has initiated 74 GW of further capacity and now accounts for 85pc of all coal plants under development in the world?
irie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:29 am
My point was that we should have a sense of proportion and avoid 'virtue signaling'.
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
The "per capita" figure is a cheat. The planet does not care how many humans there are burning coal etc. the only meaningful figure is the total volume of output and China are head and shoulders above the whole rest of the world.
Then of course they divide that figure by their equally enormous population count to suggest they're not so bad.
To press home the point, consider the total carbon footprint for, say, Sir David Attenborough. It must be GIGANTIC on a per capita basis. He's been around the world more times than I have been off this island. And yet who is going to suggest Sir Boaty McBoatface himself is an ecological disaster? I would scale that up to the UK which does a huge amount of good with it's energy use and yet as a small player, our actual volume of emissions is extremely low.
So really it comes down to "fairness". How much damage are we "allowed" to do by simply dividing by a nominal per capita statistic? Well when it comes to the CCP, I am not convinced we need to act fairly with them any more than the CCP acts fairly with its enormous wealth among its own peoples.So the argument that "well you've had your go now its our turn is moot. Excessive squandering of non renewable resources is a zero sum game, eventually the game ends as the planet becomes uninhabitable.
What can we do? Well we should be spending our money on helping developing nations. Stop India polluting the Ganges, stop China from dumping rubbish into the atmosphere (including CFCs which they never really stopped doing). Help Africa etc. That's where our money does the most good.
Scraping the plastic off disposable coffee cups in the UK is not going to save the world. Nor is allowing utilities companies to ramp up their profits and greedily stuff cash into their own pockets going to help either.
slowsider wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:10 am
You still haven't explained how we avoid virtue signalling except by doing nothing.
Or that China's may be going up, in part, matching the reductions elsewhere. Perhaps our addiction to Chinese stuff is part of the problem?
Qatar has the highest CO2 output/person in the world. Tut tut, naughty them. Tell them to stop it!
Oh...maybe it's because they produce the oil 🛢 that we buy and 'burn' so our use of it appears on their account. Who exactly is the problem?
You couldn't make it up, could you?
Saudi Arabia, has announced it aims to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2060 to curb manmade climate change.
Alongside the pledge made on Saturday the Saudis made no mention of reducing investment in oil and gas or moving away from the production of fossil fuels. Riyadh is forecast to make $150bn (£109bn) in oil revenues this year alone.
Screwdriver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:07 am
The "per capita" figure is a cheat. The planet does not care how many humans there are burning coal etc. the only meaningful figure is the total volume of output and China are head and shoulders above the whole rest of the world.
The planet doesn't care how many countries there are. China is only head and shoulders above the rest BECAUSE of its population. Perhaps a more acceptable comparison would be "per unit land mass". ? I don't think I've seen that* quoted.
Screwdriver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:07 am
The "per capita" figure is a cheat. The planet does not care how many humans there are burning coal etc. the only meaningful figure is the total volume of output and China are head and shoulders above the whole rest of the world.
The planet doesn't care how many countries there are. China is only head and shoulders above the rest BECAUSE of its population. Perhaps a more acceptable comparison would be "per unit land mass". ? I don't think I've seen that* quoted.
Hang on lads, I've had an idea! Let's all join the evangelists/Jehovah's Witnesses! Get the Willie Wonka golden ticket to the kingdom and bring on the rapture/heat death of the planet! Let it end in fire...woohoo! That'll learn 'em.
Nah. I'll just finish insulating the loft and keep nagging my MP, can't be doing with all the singing.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Voltaire
Screwdriver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:07 am
What can we do? Well we should be spending our money on helping developing nations. Stop India polluting the Ganges, stop China from dumping rubbish into the atmosphere (including CFCs which they never really stopped doing). Help Africa etc. That's where our money does the most good.
That's actually an example of what you can't do.
You could dump the whole GDP of the UK into those countries for the next 5yrs and it still wouldn't stop what their 4bn people are doing (and will continue) to do to the planet.
You're wasting your time if that's your aim.
I am thinking ore in terms of education and technology solutions. We might also recognise that allowing our large corporations to ship products with excessive packaging is bound to end up in the river (or on a bonfire) unless we step in to help manage their waste. This is compared to say doubling my utilities bill so that energy companies can buy a new fleet of electric toy cars for their executives or just stuff the cash into their pockets alongside the massive "green" subsidies the taxpayer also hands out.
So if I was to spend £100 on a project in the UK to help save the planet, it would be difficult to see any measurable response. That same £100 in a remote village in India would go a lot further!
Screwdriver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:07 am
The "per capita" figure is a cheat. The planet does not care how many humans there are burning coal etc. the only meaningful figure is the total volume of output and China are head and shoulders above the whole rest of the world.
The planet doesn't care how many countries there are. China is only head and shoulders above the rest BECAUSE of its population. Perhaps a more acceptable comparison would be "per unit land mass". ? I don't think I've seen that* quoted.
UAE 21st place, UK 26th place. China, 34th place. You CAN make a difference
Hang on you just agreed the"the planet doesn't care about countries" then use land mass by country as a way of trying to excuse China for being the biggest polluter BY SHEER VOLUME than any other society on Earth.
The CCP may use their enormous population as an excuse to claim better responsibility but as we all know, they are not dividing the benefit from excessive energy consumption or production of waste among their own people now are they?
Screwdriver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm
Hang on you just agreed the"the planet doesn't care about countries" then use land mass by country as a way of trying to excuse China for being the biggest polluter BY SHEER VOLUME than any other society on Earth.
Yes, to illustrate the vacuuity of your comment that the per capita figure is a cheat, then condemning the country with most capita.
Count Steer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:46 pm
Hang on lads, I've had an idea! Let's all join the evangelists/Jehovah's Witnesses! Get the Willie Wonka golden ticket to the kingdom and bring on the rapture/heat death of the planet! Let it end in fire...woohoo! That'll learn 'em.
Nah. I'll just finish insulating the loft and keep nagging my MP, can't be doing with all the singing.
Don't worry, Greta's back in town, she'll fix it for you.
Greta Thunberg joins climate activists at protest in London - before catching the train to join striking binmen on a march through Glasgow during Cop26
Let's hope that Greta manages to avoid the rats* running amok in Glasgow, for example in Nicola Sturgeon's ward!
"Bin lorry drivers are being offered pay deals worth as much as £40,000 a year to switch to jobs in the food industry. One council in Lancashire said last week it had lost almost half of its drivers in the last three months."
slowsider wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:02 pm
"Bin lorry drivers are being offered pay deals worth as much as £40,000 a year to switch to jobs in the food industry.
Hope they wash their hands before they start in the food industry.
