Douwe Egberts Coffee

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Le_Fromage_Grande
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Le_Fromage_Grande »

Docca wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:24 pm
Mussels wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:41 am
slowsider wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:26 am
Ermm..
"Pay for nurses and other NHS staff in England will have fallen in real terms by more than 7% since 2010, even if they accept the latest offer from the government, according to new analysis that will fuel rising anger about public sector pay deals."
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ment-offer
Nurses may also find their wages rising as a result of brexit, the halo effect of covid will need a year to wear off as applications are high for now.

Applications for WHAT are high for now?

Fromage: I find the same people who scoff at the Guardian are those who get all gammon-like when people don’t swallow their Daily Mail bullshit.
( I don’t read either, but to rule out of hand the statement just because of the source is stupid).

I’ve given you a comparison of what £12 and £25 / hour looks like from an NHS perspective. That’s fact.

The recent pay increase offer btw will be funded by each organisation and not from the centre. What that means is we’ll have to cut something to accommodate it. Like a waiting list here or service there.
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Screwdriver
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Screwdriver »

I don't think people go into nursing for the money. It is more of a vocation and less of a job. It is also one of the very few vocations with extremely valuable on the job (!) training. Many (too many) cash in on that and having been trained, find better employment elsewhere, possibly for the money I suppose but largely I assume for the working conditions.

Contrast with truck driving where the UK license is a barrier to entry with it being so expensive and who (other than those identified by Clarkson) would choose lorry driving as their ideal job?
Saga Lout
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Saga Lout »

Docca wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:24 pm
The recent pay increase offer btw will be funded by each organisation and not from the centre. What that means is we’ll have to cut something to accommodate it. Like a waiting list here or service there.
Cutting waiting lists would get my vote.
Docca
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Docca »

Screwdriver wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:55 pm I don't think people go into nursing for the money. It is more of a vocation and less of a job. It is also one of the very few vocations with extremely valuable on the job (!) training. Many (too many) cash in on that and having been trained, find better employment elsewhere, possibly for the money I suppose but largely I assume for the working conditions.


Nursing is very much a profession now and has been for decades. Long gone are the vocational views; housewives helping out a bit down the local field hospital whilst hubby does a proper job.

It’s regulated. It’s got a professional registration. You need a degree to get in now and you are revalidated every 3 years to offer proof you are still fit to practice. That’s not a gateway assessment for more pay, that’s part of the professional requirement.

Nurses are now prescribing, doing surgical procedures and leading the charge in other areas such as health IT. It’s a proper job now

The money isn’t that much better elsewhere. You might get some tax breaks working in the sand, but it’s largely similar. Working conditions are not compatible though: the best places to work remain Australia and Germany.
Mussels
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Mussels »

Docca wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:24 pm
Applications for WHAT are high for now?
Nurse training according to the Beeb the other day. I know they take time to filter through but it's no incentive to give nurses a pay rise.
All the time they can get nurses for low money it will continue to be low paid, until we hit a problem like hauliers have.
Screwdriver
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Screwdriver »

Docca wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:15 pm
Screwdriver wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:55 pm I don't think people go into nursing for the money. It is more of a vocation and less of a job. It is also one of the very few vocations with extremely valuable on the job (!) training. Many (too many) cash in on that and having been trained, find better employment elsewhere, possibly for the money I suppose but largely I assume for the working conditions.
Nursing is very much a profession now and has been for decades. Long gone are the vocational views; housewives helping out a bit down the local field hospital whilst hubby does a proper job.

It’s regulated. It’s got a professional registration. You need a degree to get in now and you are revalidated every 3 years to offer proof you are still fit to practice. That’s not a gateway assessment for more pay, that’s part of the professional requirement.

Nurses are now prescribing, doing surgical procedures and leading the charge in other areas such as health IT. It’s a proper job now

The money isn’t that much better elsewhere. You might get some tax breaks working in the sand, but it’s largely similar. Working conditions are not compatible though: the best places to work remain Australia and Germany.
I don't believe that is true. There isn't enough money in the world to make me want to work with blood, shit and vomit and I suggest at the very least, a nurse would need to be a people person. Not sure what the "housewife help" comment is all about, is that an attempt to redefine the meaning of "vocation"? I am using the term in the literal sense and I refute the suggestion that just because one regards their role as a vocation, that demotes it to less than "a proper job".

Similarly, I am not suggesting the qualification system is any sort of gateway so I am not sure what you are arguing against. Within the topic of the haulage industry being short of drivers, I merely contrast the vocational, training and progression within those roles compared to say, nursing which turned up in this thread for some other reason. I contrast how within nursing, training is "free" as opposed to acquiring a license to drive a lorry which is certainly not.

Progression within nursing can (I assume) lead to any one of a number of spectacularly diverse actual occupations whereas no matter how good you are as a driver, you are going to progress in that role and still end up driving a lorry. Maybe you get a bigger lorry??

So I am just highlighting the differences between these roles to suggest why one respected and valuable role is perhaps less well subscribed than another. I think there should be less of an obsession with "getting a degree" and more emphasis on vocational training which I further suggest should be supplied by the relevant industry, perhaps with government support.
Supermofo
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Supermofo »

Might be a driver shortage, but no shortages of bloody lorries in lane 3 of the M25 today :obscene-birdiedoublered:
Potter
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Potter »

Docca wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:09 pm
I’m not quite sure what the going rate is for driving a lorry. I’d guess it would be proportionate with actual skills required?

The rest of your comments are just twaddle. I’d suspect if you ever tried to interview for anything more challenging than putting your foot on one of 3 pedals at a time and occasionally eating a fry up, you’d have a point. Your pension point is moot nowadays too.

£12 /hour and £25/hour

https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/h ... les-202122

£12/ hour is approx newly qualified nursing wage. 3 ( or 4 ) years training. Lots of responsibilities even straight out the gate.

£25 /hour. Approx band 8b. That’s leading multiple teams. Usually between 40 and 90 staff.

For that 25/h role you’ll have to go through an assessment centre as part of your interview process. That’s a day of being grilled by occupational psychologists etc nowadays. What’s the vetting process like for lorry drivers?

Good point on low wages though. Really stood up well by comparison :thumbup:
A £12/hr lorry driver will be cheaper to employ than a £12/hr nurse, in terms of CTC (cost to company) because they won't get the same sort of benefits and welfare provisions.

I was in a private sector company that TUPE'd over NHS workers to the private sector when they took on a PFI - I'm over a decade out of date in terms of personal experience but professional colleagues are still in the situation and frankly they'd like to be rid of the TUPE guys because they're significantly more expensive than the private sector guys. PFI staff salary for the TUPE'd public sector staff is about 40% higher than their non TUPE'd private sector counterparts.

It wasn't always like this in the NHS, back in the 80's they had to pay public sector blue collar staff an allowance to match them to private sector staff who were paid higher and on somewhere near comparable final salary pensions, but 30yrs later that had changed and I know lads that tried to get back into a public sector blue collar job, they're usually paid a bit more and they have way better benefits, working hours and retirement ages.
The stories of "I could leave and earn twice as much in the private sector" have only just died down, but it's been a nonsense for well over a decade.
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by asmethurst99 »

Le_Fromage_Grande wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:50 pm
slowsider wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 pm
Le_Fromage_Grande wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:58 am

The Guardian, the last bastion of unbiased reporting
How have truck drivers and warehousing staff done by the same measure?
I wasn't the one claiming guaranteed pay rises was I?
Fact is NHS get a pay increase every year, lots of people don't, some people get pay cuts.
Fact is wrong - I'm a band 7 and until 2 years ago I hadn't had a pay increase for a while as I'd got to,the top of my band .
I had a real terms cut of about 25 quid a month at one point as our Pension contribution had gone up (my pension is ok thanks )
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irie
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by irie »

asmethurst99 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:48 pm
Le_Fromage_Grande wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:50 pm
slowsider wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 pm
I wasn't the one claiming guaranteed pay rises was I?
Fact is NHS get a pay increase every year, lots of people don't, some people get pay cuts.
Fact is wrong - I'm a band 7 and until 2 years ago I hadn't had a pay increase for a while as I'd got to,the top of my band .
I had a real terms cut of about 25 quid a month at one point as our Pension contribution had gone up (my pension is ok thanks )
So you believe that increasing your contribution to your retirement pension is a pay cut? Jeez, you couldn't make it up. :lol:
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by asmethurst99 »

My monthly pay check lessened - My pension didn’t get any bigger .
I didn’t go into the job for the pension.
We aren’t badly paid in inner London IMO .
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irie
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by irie »

You need to get your head around the relationship between public sector pay pension contribution deductions and the final value of those pensions.
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
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Yambo
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Yambo »

Le_Fromage_Grande wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:53 pm
If they want more HGV drivers they should pay people to train and pass their license.
And then treat them like human beings, even essential workers.

Then the government needs to do more so that drivers who have to spend nights out, have somewhere to park up, get a meal and a shower and don't get their load stolen.

Then the public need to stop treating them like they are bottom of the food chain. If there's no coffee on the shelves they can blame themseives.
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Yambo
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Yambo »

Winston Churhill wrote: Victory is rhe great, bright, beautiful flower. Transport is the stem without which it could never have flourished.
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Saga Lout »

Yambo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 am Then the public need to stop treating them like they are bottom of the food chain.
Whoa! Hang on!

We all need people to look down on. If we aren't allowed to denigrate truck drivers, who do you suggest replaces them. You can't just take away our figures of disdain without replacing them. The public needs to know. :(
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weeksy
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by weeksy »

Saga Lout wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:27 am
Yambo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 am Then the public need to stop treating them like they are bottom of the food chain.
Whoa! Hang on!

We all need people to look down on. If we aren't allowed to denigrate truck drivers, who do you suggest replaces them. You can't just take away our figures of disdain without replacing them. The public needs to know. :(
Fatties who wear inappropriate clothing
JackyJoll
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by JackyJoll »

Yambo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 am
stop treating them like they are bottom of the food chain.
I was one. They’re cunts.
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by JackyJoll »

weeksy wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:48 am
Fatties who wear inappropriate clothing
That’s still lorry drivers.
Potter
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by Potter »

It'll sort itself out, if the shelves stay empty then there will be no alternative than to pay more to get more drivers on the road.
If the shelves aren't empty then it's not a problem.

It always seems weird to me that people choose to do a job and then moan that they don't get paid as much as they would like - change jobs then...or stay and get whatever it pays.
If you're getting less than you think you're worth then it's not someone else's fault, it's because of your choices.
JackyJoll
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Re: Douwe Egberts Coffee

Post by JackyJoll »

Potter wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:17 am It always seems weird to me that people choose to do a job and then moan that they don't get paid as much as they would like - change jobs then...or stay and get whatever it pays.
If you're getting less than you think you're worth then it's not someone else's fault, it's because of your choices.
Or you’re not worth what you think!